When we take Buddhism out of Zen

[Liang]

I do feel that "Zen" or "Mindfulness" or other like meditation courses and therapies stripped of their Buddhist elements miss the real "powerhouse" medicine this Way has to offer.

Gassho, Jundo

This is a bit of a dilemma for me so any help would be appreciated. I came to Zen from "mindfullness" as a psychological, clinical practice and I completely agree that Zen is much more.

But next week I return to finish my last semester of schooling before diving head first into therapy with my own clients. I was going to get a certification in mindfullness and there is plenty of evidence supporting it's help. But how do I approach that now? It would be absurd, on multiple levels, to prescribe a Zen practice to my clients! But yet, it will feel odd to give just mindfullness exercises when I know there is so much more.

Luckily I have a good mentor in a professor there who can help me walk this line. But any thoughts?

Gassho,
Fred

[Jishin]

. But any thoughts?

Prescribe mindfulness exercises as usual. If they ask you three times where they came from tell them you are not a Zen teacher but you heard about a place called treeleaf...

They can also find out about it on their own.:-)

Gassho, Jishin

[Joyo]

Awesome thread, don't know what else to add, but I have enjoyed everyones' posts here.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Jundo]

Prescribe mindfulness exercises as usual. If they ask you three times where they came from tell them you are not a Zen teacher but you heard about a place called treeleaf...

They can also find out about it on their own.:-)

Gassho, Jishin

Excellent advice Doc.

Gassho, J

[Seiryu]

They can also find out about it on their own.:-)
Gassho, Jishin

I agree with this. If this practice has touched one deeply it is natural to wish to share it with others, but sometimes that is not what is needed.
Express your practice not through your words but through your silence. Sometimes this reaches deeper.

[Jundo]

By the way, some of the "Mindfulness" Teachers admit that they are trying to present traditional Buddhist teachings in a rather rephrased way in order to better present the same in a secular world, public schools, for non-religious settings and such. I think that is a good thing, and certainly better than those selling a kind of "Mindfulness meditation" missing all the fine Teachings, merely guiding people to relax a little, be better and more productive greedy corporate drones or less emotional soldiers for the pentagon!

In fact, I would not mind to develop a more secular, less obviously Buddhist form of "Just Sitting Mindfulness" based on Shikantaza, but without the incense, statues, Kesa and robes, chants in foreign languages from old Sutra books, overt references to "Buddha" and such. This would also be an attempt to keep as much of the Traditional teachings as possible, but to present the Practice in a way better suited as an introduction for secular, non-religious people and settings. Compassion, Wisdom, the harmless and healthful ways of the Precepts can be presented without, for example, over reference to "the Buddhist Precepts".

What do I see as the basic difference between such "Just Sitting Mindfulness Meditation" and some of the "Mindfulness" courses out there now? It is a very subtle different, but something I believe we really have to offer. Namely, much of the Mindfulness training out there now seems based on those flavors of Buddhism which emphasize degrees of reaching and attaining ... attaining insight, attaining peace or a goal of relaxation. "Just Sitting" would, in our Shikantaza way, emphasize a bit more the radical non-attaining, sitting in completeness and wholeness, dropping of goalness, being one with "just how things are"-ness of our Shikantaza way. In fact, many of the existing Mindfulness courses do seem to emphasize that "non-attaining" to one degree or another (and have been influenced partly by Zen approaches), so our way might just bring that front and center more. People who are suffering would truly benefit from the beauty and sacredness (even if a non-religious sacredness) of sitting wholly in/with/as this world as it is.

I would like to work with some mental health professionals on developing such a "secular Shikantaza" in the coming years.

Gassho, Jundo

[Ryumon]

I would very much like to see the, Jundo.

Gassho,
Kirk


(Posted from my iPhone; please excuse any typos or brevity.)

[Heisoku]

Now that would be an interesting project Jundo. I am working with some 11 year olds with 'general anxiety' which is not severe enough to be referred to any mental health primary care (they are overloaded).
I was exploring some calming strategies with them involving qigong as a standing breathing exercise (I already run two lunchtime sessions and are quite popular - particularly among the quieter and more vulnerable children). However as they said you cannot do this in class or before national exams. So we have been trying sitting abdominal breathing for 10 breaths with awareness, then We tried body scan which they can do and finally we tried a simple 'walking on the beach' visualisation, which was a disaster as they are so agitated that visualising 'pictures' was not possible.
Now I have been thinking of what you have suggested about just sitting (and breathing) as an additional 'move' in my qigong to introduce the idea of sitting and breathing meditation without calling it meditation (this is considered a yoga in some Christian groups and can be quite contentious). I think it is how to introduce the activity of shikantaza without the religious aspect since many people are not prepared or informed enough about what it truly does. Too much superstition and suspicion around still! I would be very interested to be involved in such a project and I would be able to involve learning mentors, art therapists, primary mental health workers and educational psychologists with an interest in this. Gassho.

[Heisoku]

Hi again, here is a link to current research in the Uk which comes out of a local Uni linked to Cambridge. http://mindfulnessinschools.org/rese...hools-project/
You may also wish to look at the .b (DotB) project which seems to be the main mindfulness in schools approach here in the uk. http://mindfulnessinschools.org/what-is-b/
These look very organised but look at the prices! At least £750 for a certificate to teach!
Gassho.

[alan.r]

I would like to work with some mental health professionals on developing such a "secular Shikantaza" in the coming years.

Gassho, Jundo

I agree with others. This would be great. Would very much like to see it happen.

Gassho

[Joyo]

I agree with others. This would be great. Would very much like to see it happen.

Gassho

I would too. In fact, I'd like to somehow be part of seeing it happen.

Gassho,
Joyo

[TimF]

As someone with ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) , I would love to have had an approach to Zen in my youth. I am convinced that a "secular" Shikantaza may have helped me out when I was having difficult times "taming" my mind. Zazen has worked wonders for me since joining Treeleaf, and I would love to see sitting help others!

Gassho,
Tim

[Tiwala]

Hey Tim! I have ADD too, and some other people here.

Shikantaza isn't really about taming the mind... nor is it really secular or sacred (in my current understanding) many times I still frolick around like a madman in my head and all thoughts are violently asserting themselves, but they're just thoughts. . . Whole and complete, even when they drop away like my brain is shedding skin 900000 times a second.

Nevertheless, it has personally helped me learn how to let go of thoughts, and not be enslaved by them as much. I learned that I don't really need to react to my thoughts, that I don't need to believe them all the time (or at all sometimes)... most of all that they never last forever...and thus not -me-

So, who am I, really?

Gassho, Ben

[TimF]

Hey Tim! I have ADD too, and some other people here.

Shikantaza isn't really about taming the mind... nor is it really secular or sacred (in my current understanding) many times I still frolick around like a madman in my head and all thoughts are violently asserting themselves, but they're just thoughts. . . Whole and complete, even when they drop away like my brain is shedding skin 900000 times a second.

Nevertheless, it has personally helped me learn how to let go of thoughts, and not be enslaved by them as much. I learned that I don't really need to react to my thoughts, that I don't need to believe them all the time (or at all sometimes)... most of all that they never last forever...and thus not -me-

So, who am I, really?

Gassho, Ben

I agree with that! While I understand that Zen is not about achieving anything, when I sit I am getting better at just letting things go, even when I am under constant barrage of thoughts and feelings. I no longer cling to them....I am able to recognize them and let them disappear on their own accord. Some moments are better than others but I have found a certain comfort in the teachings of Buddha as well as in zazen.

Gassho,
Tim

[Jundo]

Sounds like both you fellows are A-OK,

Gassho, J