Mechanics of Enlightenment

[Tiwala]

Because you have to get that there's nothing to get, and that's getting something great, but you can't get it by wanting to get it, you already are it, and practicing is the expression of that.

That being said, I have no idea what I'm talking about. These words, ech. (and this coming from a "writer"). Also, don't know anything about silent illumination. This can be frustrating stuff, I realize.

Why bother? You don't have to bother. No one is making you bother. But, just simplify, don't you want to sit? If so, just sit. Listen, why do some people run marathons? You know, most people I know that run marathons don't run marathons because they want to be the best runner in the world. They maybe want to prove something to themselves; they maybe want something special in their life; they might want some great challenge - so, they have to fight, and will it, and work hard, and practice. And then, eventually, over time, they one day just are gone, lost in the run, the run is them, no difference, no more fighting, willing, or practicing, now, just running. Same with sitting.

Gassho

When I read things like nothing to get, I feel that it's just being so engrossed in an activity that there really is nothing except that activity. Is that what is meant by nothing to attain? Shunryu Suzuki also states it similarly with his essay about bowing, saying that when bowing, there is just one complete bow encompassing the entire universe. At that moment, there is no you, or I, or Buddha, etc.

A literal interpretation of nothing to attain seems absolutely absurd to me. It's not literal right? In the Heart Sutra it says nothing is to be attained, but then later on it says that all Buddhas attain AnuttaraSamyak sambodhi. The mumonkan says something similar... when the world is destroyed, it is not destroyed. But this only makes sense in light of emptiness, to me at least.

Gassho,
Ben

[alan.r]

When I read things like nothing to get, I feel that it's just being so engrossed in an activity that there really is nothing except that activity. Is that what is meant by nothing to attain? Shunryu Suzuki also states it similarly with his essay about bowing, saying that when bowing, there is just one complete bow encompassing the entire universe. At that moment, there is no you, or I, or Buddha, etc.

A literal interpretation of nothing to attain seems absolutely absurd to me. It's not literal right? In the Heart Sutra it says nothing is to be attained, but then later on it says that all Buddhas attain AnuttaraSamyak sambodhi. The mumonkan says something similar... when the world is destroyed, it is not destroyed. But this only makes sense in light of emptiness, to me at least.

Gassho,
Ben

Yes, right, I think, though it is literally "nothing to attain," but only from a certain perspective. It has to be considered/contemplated from the relative and universal perspective at once, both intertwined.

Gassho

[Tiwala]

So to attain is to not attain. So whatever we attain is indeed nothing. Is that right? Otherwise, why not just jump over the bridge and die if there's no point to anything, or sit around like a log for all eternity doing literally nothing, or maybe a comatose badger enjoying the tranquil repose of a rotting corpse, a burden to those around him. Surely this is not the Buddhadharma (but, in emptiness, it still is). Right?


Gassho, Ben

[alan.r]

So to attain is to not attain. So whatever we attain is indeed nothing. Is that right? Otherwise, why not just jump over the bridge and die if there's no point to anything, or sit around like a log for all eternity doing literally nothing, or maybe a comatose badger enjoying the tranquil repose of a rotting corpse, a burden to those around him. Surely this is not the Buddhadharma (but, in emptiness, it still is). Right?


Gassho, Ben

No, not at all. It's not that what you attain is "indeed nothing." What are you right now? Is that "nothing." The attainment is whatever you are right now, wholly complete, lacking nothing, fully part of the universe and the universe itself - how can you attain that? How can you attain what you already are, right? But what you already are is not your small self, so we practice. It's not nothingness; it's just seeing through the same game as everything: getting what's better, getting better, getting great. It's dropping all that, all attempt at attainment, and then you've attained. It's the attaining part that causes problems, because it's our ego that wants - focus on that part. Not the nothing part.

Think of the koan about the guy that asks the other guy why's he's meditating. And the guy's like, I'm sitting zazen. And the other guy goes, Why are you doing that? And the sitting zazen guy says, To get enlightened. And the other starts polishing a tile. And the sitting zazen guy says, Why the heck are you polishing that tile? And the polishing guy says, To make a mirror. And the sitting zazen guy says, That's a ridiculous reason - it's impossible. And the polishing guy says, Same with your sitting zazen to get enlightenment. (also, of course this story is just from my memory - please check out a better version)

Though of course, please Jundo, Taigu, and others, please correct me.

Gassho

[Daitetsu]

Hi Tony,

Thanks Timo,

Great advice again. All taken on board.

However....

"There is nothing to get, just practice"

Felt like screaming the house down! If there's nothing to get, why oh why bother?

I am sorry to drive you insane, believe me, I just want to help.

And I apologise in advance for the following sentence:
Don't expect anything and you'll gain nothing and everything at the same time. (It's a bit like in order to achieve something you must stop wanting it.)

IMHO it is not possible to approach this with the intellect. Because it is the thinking mind that discriminates. Be the you before thinking sets in.
Sit zazen without any expectations whatsoever. If you don't expect anything, how could you get disappointed?
Many of the zen guys, mystics like Rumi or Meister Echkart, and many Taoists had to use poetry and the arts to express it - because intellectual words fail. They must fail, because they are product of our thinking mind. So practice Non-Thinking! (shikantaza)
I know how you must feel, believe me.
It can make you feel as if all people around you tell the same insider joke...

The following is not a Zen text, but from the Taoist classic (Tao Te Ching; Mitchell translation). I think it should be compulsory reading for every Zennie, too:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.

And:

Colors blind the eye.
Sounds deafen the ear.
Flavors numb the taste.
Thoughts weaken the mind.
Desires wither the heart.

The Master observes the world
but trusts his inner vision.
He allows things to come and go.
His heart is open as the sky.

And finally:

Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

Above, it isn't bright.
Below, it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnamable,
it returns to the realm of nothing.
Form that includes all forms,
image without an image,
subtle, beyond all conception.

Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.
Just realize where you come from:
this is the essence of wisdom

I have asked others this and been told "practice for practices sake" which means absolutely nothing to me at all.

I think the following quotes by Kodo Sawaki might be helpful (but it can be even more confusing, which I don't hope):

When somebody asks me what zazen is good for, I say that zazen isn’t good for anything at all. And then some say that in that case they’d rather stop doing zazen. But what’s running around satisfying your desires good for? What is gambling good for? And dancing? What is it good for to get worked up over winning or losing in baseball? It’s all good for absolutely nothing! That’s why nothing is as sensible as sitting silently in zazen. In the world, “good for nothing” just means that you can’t make money out of it.

[ ... ]

We’ve got to practice genuine, pure zazen, without mixing it with gymnastics or satori or anything. When we bring in our personal ideas – even only a little bit – it’s no longer the buddha-dharma. In a word, Buddhism is non-self [muga]. Non-self means that “I” am not a separate subject. When “I” am not a separate subject, then I fill the entire universe. That I fill the entire universe is what’s meant by “all things manifest the truth”.

I guess it might help me understand more if I could see what the differences are between Silent Illumination and Shikantaza?

Sorry, can't help you here, I'm afraid, as I don't know what Silent Illumination is...

Don't try to understand, just practice, just do it, just be it. Drop EVERYTHING, let go EVERYTHING - relax and enjoy the silence in the head.
Believe me, most things will fall into place by themselves.

Must go to bed now, past 3:00 am here...


Gassho,

Timo

[Tiwala]

No, not at all. It's not that what you attain is "indeed nothing." What are you right now? Is that "nothing." The attainment is whatever you are right now, wholly complete, lacking nothing, fully part of the universe and the universe itself - how can you attain that? How can you attain what you already are, right? But what you already are is not your small self, so we practice. It's not nothingness; it's just seeing through the same game as everything: getting what's better, getting better, getting great. It's dropping all that, all attempt at attainment, and then you've attained. It's the attaining part that causes problems, because it's our ego that wants - focus on that part. Not the nothing part.

Think of the koan about the guy that asks the other guy why's he's meditating. And the guy's like, I'm sitting zazen. And the other guy goes, Why are you doing that? And the sitting zazen guy says, To get enlightened. And the other starts polishing a tile. And the sitting zazen guy says, Why the heck are you polishing that tile? And the polishing guy says, To make a mirror. And the sitting zazen guy says, That's a ridiculous reason - it's impossible. And the polishing guy says, Same with your sitting zazen to get enlightenment. (also, of course this story is just from my memory - please check out a better version)

Though of course, please Jundo, Taigu, and others, please correct me.

Gassho

Hi,

Bolded part kind of bothers me. Zen is supposed to be a practice for daily life, but daily life without thought and attempt at attainment seems absurd to me. What about the Four Great Vows? Are they not an attempt to attain something? A life of perpetual stagnation in no moving, no desire, no nothing seems like a terribly selfish way to live. If everyone had no desire or attempt at attainment, wouldn't all society fall apart? Society falling apart can hardly be considered a good thing.

It kind of makes me think about non-thinking. It's not thinking, it's not not-thinking... but realising that transcendent reality above and beyond thinking and not thinking. Doesn't this also apply to daily life? When desiring, desire non-desire. When acting, act non-acting etc.

Gassho,
Ben

[alan.r]

Hi,

Bolded part kind of bothers me. Zen is supposed to be a practice for daily life, but daily life without thought and attempt at attainment seems absurd to me. What about the Four Great Vows? Are they not an attempt to attain something? A life of perpetual stagnation in no moving, no desire, no nothing seems like a terribly selfish way to live. If everyone had no desire or attempt at attainment, wouldn't all society fall apart? Society falling apart can hardly be considered a good thing.

It kind of makes me think about non-thinking. It's not thinking, it's not not-thinking... but realising that transcendent reality above and beyond thinking and not thinking. Doesn't this also apply to daily life? When desiring, desire non-desire. When acting, act non-acting etc.

Gassho,
Ben

Yeah, I agree with you. First, I'm sure I'm not expressing this very well, so my sincere apologies. Second, it's difficult to talk about this thing that can't be talked about. It's ineffable, by definition - that's why Dogen gives me a freaking headache some of the time!

Anyway though, I don't say anything about stagnation or no desire or having no thoughts - we have desires, thoughts, and move around; it's just not attaching to these things, letting them go, and it's seriously difficult work. When cooking, do we try to make a meal for the Gods every day, or just a nice meal for ourselves/family - if I tried to attain such a meal every day, I would literally go insane. Same with sitting for me (but heck, maybe I'm doing it wrong; that could very well be).

In any case, maybe I'm just talking past you and not really hearing you - I completely acknowledge this as a failing of my own. Sometimes all this zen talk gets muddy (especially by me) - anyway, time for me to sleep.

I hope I haven't caused more confusion, but if so, someone around here can make things clear, I suspect.

Gassho

PS: It was nice talking to you and I'll check this thread in the morning.

[Tiwala]

It was nice talking to you too. I'm not exactly sure what I'm babbling on about either.

Maybe some others will add in their thoughts later on.

Gassho

[shikantazen]

Great thread. beautiful wisdom.

Tony,

If you see the past threads opened by me, I have asked many questions like you are doing now. Over the past few months, my desire for enlightenment seems to have greatly subsided. Don't know whether it is a good or bad thing. lol. I also am loving just doing the practice, the sitting, the bowing, all of that.

Also, I feel you raised a very good point below:

"Also, I think you're overestimating my ability to 'let thoughts go and not follow them' - I think that this is incredibly hard and a 'goal' in and of itself."

I don't get that instruction either. I too feel it is a goal in itself. Whenever I try not to get caught up or try to wake up from thought, my sitting feels like any meditation with an object. May be I am misunderstanding the instruction but I completely agree with you it is misleading. In practice I let my thinking also be as is. Just like everything that's happening is fine, getting caught up in my thoughts is fine too. Nothing that happens in sitting is wrong. There is nothing in sitting like "oh this shouldn't be happening" or "I need to fix this". Same thing applies for thoughts too in my view. When I get caught up in thought and feel "oh this shouldn't be happening" -- it is okay! There is no goal/state we are trying to be in. Right? There is nothing else that should be happening instead. So whatever is happening should be okay. Let me also add, I don't intentionally or purposefully try to think anything during sitting. But if thoughts come and I get caught up, it is fine. I definitely can't let them go or not follow them. The only option I have is to tell myself getting caught up is okay once I realize I am off the thought stream. May be teachers and senior students can clarify. But I feel this is a very important point.

Gassho, Sam

[shikantazen]

oh about the difference between silent illumination vs shikantaza

I did explore both the methods initially. I read Sheng Yen's Method of no Method and also his other books and have spoken to his student (Guo Gu who is a teacher now) and main translator of the former book

In Silent Illumination essentially you focus-on/try-to-be-aware-of your whole body sitting on the cushion. If your mind wanders, you bring it back to that awareness. I feel there is a clear method to it. Shikantaza as everyone here described is totally different. Really no method or technique. I feel there is a great beauty in not doing anything and giving it all up and letting it happen. Any agenda, any method, any tool in your hand is fine as a technique that may latter lead to shikantaza but it is not shikantaza.

Gassho,
Sam

[Daitetsu]

Hi Ben,

Zen is supposed to be a practice for daily life, but daily life without thought and attempt at attainment seems absurd to me.

You are not supposed to do that anyway!
You cannot "function" in daily life without thinking, withouth having goals.
Having goals in everyday life is not bad! However, you should take those goals lightly, not get attached to them.
You should follow your goals in daily life on the basis of what you (non-)do on the cushion.

Thinking is not bad - without it we would still live in the caves (and probably fight each other with clubs instead of machine guns, but that's another topic).
The human brain is wonderful, where would we be without it?
However, thinking is not the be-all and the end-all when it comes to who we really are. In order to know who you really are, thoughts are misleading. Because it is the thoughts that give you the impression you were a separate individual. They kind of project/generate the image of there being a you existing apart from other people. It makes you think "This here is me, and everything else is not me." Because it is the job of the brain to do so. That which we call our "self" is something like a tool that facilitates living in daily life, doing maths, writing a letter, etc. It is just a construct of our brain.
There was a very fascinating article in the magazine "New Scientist" about the illusion of the self. Today's science also asserts that our conception of a separate, independent self is just a construct.

So yes, go about your things in daily life, but with the knowledge of our great delusion in the "back" of your head. Live your life fully, but see through the delusion at the same time.
It is actually a bit like in a lucid dream (see above in this thread).
Dropping thinking and goals all the time would make you into a kind of mindfulness zombie...

Jundo and Taigu have lots of beautiful talks about this in the video section. These videos are priceless and worth watching again and again.

BTW: Sorry for not commenting on the other posts in this thread, I just don't have the time right now. Thank you all for your great posts!

Gassho,

Timo


PS: Again: Sorry if I come across like teaching something. This is not my intention. I just want to help, because I know that many, many practitioners have these questions.
Jundo and Taigu are the ones whose advice to follow!

[Tiwala]

Thank you Timo.

But then it raises the question of what delusion really is.

Reminds me of something from Dogen... someone asking him what is meant by someone being enlightened, but nevertheless deluded

Gassho,
Ben


Gassho, Ben

[Kokuu]

Hi all

I don't think that anyone is recommending not thinking, either on the cushion or in life. Just don't take thoughts as something concrete and real other than machinations of the brain, and most likely ones driven by short-term pleasure seeking which is how the brain usually operates.

If you want to attain something you are immediately looking to the future and make the present moment inadequate. By dropping all thoughts of attaining anything (and by dropping I mean letting be without taking them as the real analysis of the situation) we are in the present moment as it is and that is all shikantaza (and life) is.

Tibetans call westerners lazy because we spend so much time chasing our tail to achieve something yet we fight so hard against just sitting still for a while. Read all the Madhyamaka texts and Abhidamma you like, it is going to get nowhere need where you want to be than just sitting still. But we have freedom of choice to follow our own deluded thoughts or take note of what people like Dogen, Hongzhi, Huineng and Kodo Sawaki Roshi have been saying for centuries/decades.

If you don't like just sitting there are plenty of other Buddhist paths with stages and goals to appease the 'get something' mind. My last teacher spent a large amount of his first three year Tibetan retreat working out how Vajrayana practice worked. He said it was completely pointless. What you need to do is practice and have some degree of trust that what other students and teachers say is true. I can understand it may all sounds bonker but you must have been drawn to Soto Zen for a reason so why not agree with yourself to take it on trust for 12 weeks or so and just practice with a review at the end of that?

Gassho
Andy

[Jundo]

Not to speak for anyone else, but I have not found relative peace. Also though, I'm not always searching for peace anymore. When sad, sad. When depressed, depressed - no fighting. When happy, happy. ...

I have found a Peace (Big "P") that holds all the broken pieces, both peace and war ... a Joy (Big "J") that holds happy days and sad. When sad I am sad, when happy just happy. "I" found such behind and right through the "I" that judges peace and war, happy vs. sad.

Though Peace transcending peace and war ... let us stop the war and make peace on this earth.

The goalless, complete, whole thing arises naturally of itself, of its own accord - you do nothing. It blooms through you, normally, non-specially.

Lovely.

"There is nothing to get, just practice"

Felt like screaming the house down! If there's nothing to get, why oh why bother?

I have asked others this and been told "practice for practices sake" which means absolutely nothing to me at all.

Why not stay in the warm bed with my wife and not get up in the cold to sit if there is nothing to get? Practice implies working towards something, to be fulfilled at some point. Practice implies fruits and the rewards of practice - doesn't it?

Tony, I have to say that this conversation is now just going around in circles ... going nowhere ... covering the same ground ...



This "non-paradox" of Shikantaza has been explained to you from many angles, and advice handed out by the carload about how to non-go about it in order to non-get "it". Sorry, seems that Karma has rendered you unable or unsuited to getting the point. Perhaps it is not for you. Maybe "you" will never get this nothing to "get".

Or, you might just try it for awhile (my advice) and ... like many folks here ... it will just non-come to you one timeless day! Like a joke that somebody tells you in a bar that you don't get until, suddenly one morning, you get it! Oh, that is what it was all about! So obvious! Silly me!

In the meantime, enough talking about it. More than enough has been said. Time to just sit and see what non-happens.

Gassho, J

PS - Many Buddhists are so good at chasing their tails that the chase goes on for (traditionally) lifetimes! Others realize that such was here all along, and there were no lifetimes even as we dreamed of lifetimes. If you dream of stages and progress, mountains to cross ... sure enough, one must cross them, climb them and reach for progress. But when one realizes that the dream of the mountain was ever underfoot Buddha climbing Buddha ... abracadabra ... the mountains are crossed.

[Daijo]

Isn't it just that the root of our suffering is all of this seeking for something other than what is? If you're seeking to be somewhere other than your cushion, then you're going to be disappointed. You can only be where you are. Even if you get yourself somewhere else. The old saying, "No matter where you go, there you are." turns out to be a bit of a koan.

So when we sit with the intent of achieving something other than what we're doing. The only thing we can be doing. We're, as Shunryu Suzuki put it "wasting our time".

At least that's my understanding of "just sitting"