Mechanics of Enlightenment

[Tiwala]

Thinking you're everything that happens to you is a nice provisional method to drop subject-object thinking that worked out for me.

Also I also used to have that itch since I came from a very rinzai approach. So I know how you feel. I even went through some sleepness nights trying to get my head around shikantaza. Haha. Just keep doing it. You'll get it at some point. It'll feel right even if everything else doesn't.

Gassho, Ben

[shikantazen]

But...... Saying that sitting is Enlightenment doesn't make it so ( does it?).

I am exploring the Soto stance coming from a very different tradition - but Dogen and Shikantaza are both like an itch I cannot scratch. Hence the questions. I am yet to be in a position to assimilate much of the messages within the colourful, poetic language of Zen. I am more used to a very pragmatic and direct answer to questions rather than inferential open answers. I can see that once understood though this language may be more 'direct'. But at the moment, 'Buddha sitting as Buddha' means absolutely nothing to me...

Hi Tony,

I can relate to this well as I too came in from other traditions and had trouble making sense of all of this. Once you sit for a few months may be things will change. Sitting is all you need to do. If your sitting is correct everything will fall into place. I am not worried about whether you understand the Zen philosophy right. I will be more worried if your sitting is not right. Would you like to share with us how you sit? Especially the mental aspect of it. Try to put it in "your own original words" so that others can see what it actually means to you.

Here are few quotes from senior students and others that I liked

"The best way to be effective at sitting is by not trying to be effective at all"

"There is no method. Just Sit"

"Allow everything to be exactly as it is. Sit and know that whatever happens is okay"

"Zazen does Zazen. It is not your sitting or my sitting. It is sitting sitting itself"

"Sitting is an act of surrender, simply sitting and letting go of all control. letting go of the meditator or the one who is trying to control the meditation"

There can be some beautiful pointers or instructions (like allowing everything to be as is) but none of the instructions are meant to be implemented in a strict or rigid way. They are just light instructions, simple pointers. We sit simply not doing anything but again not falling into any dull/hazy mind state. That's why there are very few instructions about what to do with the mind. Most Zen teachers talk about the posture or physical aspect of it (Like nishijima suggesting to bring the spine back straight whenever your mind wanders) rather than telling us what to do with the mind. Any instruction about mind can tend to get implemented in a rigid way becoming an obstacle by itself.

In other traditions, we do something, we follow a technique and pass through certain stages which finally culminates in awakening.

In Shikantaza, we don't do anything, we let go all control and let it all happen. It is not a process and there are no stages to it. Thinking in terms of stages or process or going somewhere only hinders this. That is why there is less talk about enlightenment and practice itself is called enlightenment. When they say practice is enlightenment, it doesn't mean "the enlightenment" in the grandest sense. It just means there is no enlightenment or any grand state to look for other than this simple sitting or living our life now. You don't need to believe all of this. You can sit with whatever expectations you have about enlightenment. Just simply sit and let it do its work

Gassho,
Sam

[Daitetsu]

The dream person merely deciding that it's all a dream is no use at all. It's just moving the furniture around in the prison cell, not escaping. Someone's whispering in my ear "it's a dream that's all" gives me the impetus to actually wake up!

The problem is, you can wake up as often as you want, you'll always end up sleeping/dreaming again!
You probably know what lucid dreaming is? When you realize you are dreaming and then to keep on dreaming consciously with that knowledge.
So the "art" consists in something you could call "lucid living". To know of delusion, but live this life fully, becoming completely yourself with no masks. Because dream, being awake, the dreamer and the dreamt are all the same. Just different sides of a coin. You need to get it all under one roof.
Having kensho/satori does not make you a better person or pay your bills. You keep on getting back to the world of samsara. However, it's all complete all the time - samsara/satori in a way the same.
Getting back to square one, yet changed. Being the same all along, yet different.

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

So nicely expressed, Sam.

... Sit and know that whatever happens is okay"

All okay! Nothing in need of change! Yet, we have to let go of and change some things that are simultaneously not okay ... like excess desire, anger, the divisive thoughts of ignorance.

Both views at once, as one.

That's why there are very few instructions about what to do with the mind.

Open the hand of thought, and don't grab on to the thoughts that pop into mind. Do not wallow in long trains of thought or emotion, but when you find yourself doing so (as you will), open the hand of thought again and come back to 'just sitting' (or the posture or the breath for some teachers). Repeat.

Don't think thought or emotions are good or bad. Simply, just don't grab on.

Sit in silence and illumination as the clarity which results.

So the "art" consists in something you could call "lucid living".

Oh, love that. Gonna steal that!

Yes, radically radically allowing, letting be, embracing, not grabbing, not thinking, not wallowing, not doing ... so tricky! One would think that "not doing" would easy compared to our daily life of constantly "doing doing doing".

Gassho, J

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

So the "art" consists in something you could call "lucid living".

Oh, love that. Gonna steal that!

Thanks, but the credit actually goes to British author Tim Freke who used this term in an interview I read.
It immediately struck a chord in me. I know, all these analogies have their limits (as it is impossible to define IT), but I liked that one a lot.

Yes, radically radically allowing, letting be, embracing, not grabbing, not thinking, not wallowing, not doing ... so tricky! One would think that "not doing" would easy compared to our daily life of constantly "doing doing doing".

Nice! Oh yes, so difficult sometimes... The Chinese concept of Wu Wei comes into mind - the "Doing by Non-Doing". Which is hard to grasp at the beginning - many people misunderstand it as lethargy, indifference or laziness, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Thank you Jundo for your post about the "boogey-man" under the bed. This is an important thread IMHO.


Gassho,

Timo

[dharmasponge]

Sam quoted another person who had said:

"Allow everything to be exactly as it is. Sit and know that whatever happens is okay"

Now I am starting to conclude that 'Just Sitting' means developing a refined and philosophically impressive apathy.

[dharmasponge]

Would you like to share with us how you sit? Especially the mental aspect of it. Try to put it in "your own original words" so that others can see what it actually means to you.

There's a question!

I live in the UK and I started my career as a Buddhist within the Tibetan tradition - Gelug school. Had somewhat of an experience of Emptiness (not a big deal I am sure but it tickled my taste-buds). For several years practiced the analytical meditations on the Emptiness of self. Searching for the object of negation (me/I) and how it appears to my mind. Then trying to 'find' it.......impossible of course and whats left is an experience of the lack of an inherently existent me/I. Very powerful stuff. Gave me much insight into how I experience phenomena as truly existent and independent, when their mode of existence is merely name, generic ideas and concepts. No real 'reality' outside my mind.

Annnnyyyywaayyy! For some reason I started to feel suffocated with all the bells, mantra and tantras. Then moved about 5 years ago into studying with a Theravadin teacher here in the UK. Much more comfortable for me. I practiced Vipassana and Anapanasati for some time and kept up an intellectual interest in both Nargajuna and Shantidevas works as well as studying the Abhidhamma.

For the past year or two I have been practicing Silent Illumination as taught by Sheng Yen - I know Jundo isn't entirely comfortable with some of Sheng Yens stances but it certainly introduced the idea of a formless practice to my mind.

The Dogen jumped out and kicked me up the arse.

Now I am here, like a child again! Confused and irritated all at once. But something is keeping me intrigued and trying to practice this not practicing practice.

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony,

I spent some time in the Gelug school myself. Madhyamaka Prasangika philosophy is great for those of us who like to think and Zazen definitely far more of a challenge to the logical mind that just wants to know why. Gelug analytical meditation is great for negation of self but direct awareness meditation such as shikantaza shows us what is there when everything else drops away - reality just as it is.

Being a child again is exactly where you are supposed to be - well, the awed and intrigued, even confused, part. Drop the thinking, do the sitting. It's not that different in vipassana and anapanasati, no?. Always thinking about where you are going and how you are going to get there takes you away from the here and now. Where else do you expect to find realisation?

Gassho
Andy

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony,

I spent some time in the Gelug school myself. Madhyamaka Prasangika philosophy is great for those of us who like to think and Zazen definitely far more of a challenge to the logical mind that just wants to know why. Gelug analytical meditation is great for negation of self but direct awareness meditation such as shikantaza shows us what is there when everything else drops away - reality just as it is.

Being a child again is exactly where you are supposed to be - well, the awed and intrigued, even confused, part. Drop the thinking, do the sitting. It's not that different in vipassana and anapanasati, no?. Always thinking about where you are going and how you are going to get there takes you away from the here and now. Where else do you expect to find realisation?

Gassho
Andy

I guess it must be down to my understanding of what Shikantaza is then.

I know that I must be wrong because I am talking to a community that clearly 'gets it'.

I just get mildly irritated (by nobody in particular I hasten to add) when asked to drop the thinking....I know nobody who can do that....ever...anywhere!

Its an intellectual trap IMO to speak of non-thinking....a stone can not-think. Thats not a virtue or helpful...its nihilism and useless.

Can you detect my frustration hahaha!!!

I cannot see how sitting, doing nothing, merely trying to not think, whilst (pretending) that everything is ok just the way it is, is of any use.

Pope John Paul II suggested Buddhist Liberation was a "Perfected Indifference". I am feeling that re Shikantaza....

Please don't misunderstand the manner in which I am speaking here - I am trying to be honest not aggressive or Trolish, I hope that much is clear.

_/|\_

[Jundo]

[/I][/B]Now I am starting to conclude that 'Just Sitting' means developing a refined and philosophically impressive apathy.

NO! I would describe us as a "cake and eat it too" school, a way to hold seemingly opposite or conflicting views at once (derived from the Mahayana way of encountering the world in various ways at once) ... as if seeing the world one way out of one eye, another way from the other, and all in focus when they come together.

So, we are anything BUT apathetic. I would describe this path as how to be passionately involved, caring, concerned with the world AND have equanimity AT ONCE. How to have passions deeply held, yet not be their prisoner, do not let them run over us, know how to let them go when the time comes to let them go ... all AT ONCE.

In Shikantaza, we learn total embracing and "oneness" with "how things are" ... all while we simultaneously learn to get up from the Zafu, get on with life, get involved with the world, love the people in our life we love, decry the injustices of the world that deserve decrying, and fix what needs fixing.

It ain't no "apathy" my friend!

Its an intellectual trap IMO to speak of non-thinking....a stone can not-think. Thats not a virtue or helpful...its nihilism and useless.

NO! Another "cake and eat it too". We do not try to be in some state of "no thought" like a corpse or rock!

Rather, we learn the silence, illumination, wholeness, clarity, peace of not being driven around by the storms of thought that clutter up the head, all the little self's "yadda yadda yadda" and "I want I want I want".

Then, rising from the cushion (and sometimes on the cushion too), when our head is again filled with all kinds of thoughts and emotions on this and that and the other thing ... we may learn to think and feel all that WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY seeing through and not being the prisoner of all that. In other words, we can have thoughts and emotions while simultaneoualy knowing that "silence, illumination, wholeness, clarity, peace" that shines right through.

We call this "thinking-non-thinking".

If you think we have been telling you about some method to "stop thinking" ... to turn the head into a cold brick ... then you have not been listening!

Gassho, J

[Daitetsu]

Hi Tony,

I understand your frustration perfectly well.
There is a difference between just sitting and just sitting.

Shikantaza is not sitting and watching TV.
It is not sitting and thinking about tomorrow's tasks.
It is not sitting and thinking about that guy who almost caused an accident.
It is not sitting and focusing on an object.

Shikantaza is sitting in order to sit.
To just be. To just exist. To be the whole universe.
In that way it is the most honest thing to do. Not doing something in order to get entertained, make something clean, etc. Just sit without any purpose at all. Not even enlightenment.
Let thoughts come and let them drift away without pushing them forcefully or hanging on to them.
Allow things to be as they are, to be as IT is.
Yes, sometimes there are no thoughts at all or certain "experiences" might come now or then (or not), but this is not important at all! Such "experiences" are just another thing one might get attached to.
If you have an "insight", "realise" something or experience something, that's fine - but then move on. Because you can't escape the world of samsara anyway.

And when you just sit you realise that this is enough, that nothing is missing. Being the you, before the thinking mind sets in with its judgments, fears, differentations, prejudices, likes and dislikes.
Being the real you, realising your are not identical with your thoughts, but that there is no independent "you" at all, while at the same being everything that is.
Getting off the cushion and see this in every day life as well. When you wash the dishes, when you talk to your child, when you hug a friend, when you sit on the toilet.

Perhaps you think we are nuts, and that would be understandable.
Believe me, I am actually a head person, almost followed a carrer path at university. So I know how this sounds to "drop all thoughts".
Actually it is of no use trying to tell you about this, because you can only see for yourself by doing it.

Why don't you just give it a try for two months or so? Diligently doing shikantaza zazen every day? Then see for yourself.
This is probably the only thing that could convince you.
And if you have some time, I can recommend you the book "Opening the hand of thought" and after that some works by Kodo Sawaki.
They explain the Soto way very well IMHO.

Sorry for that lengthy post...

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

Timo,

[Mp]

Nicely said Timo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Guest]

What a wonderful conversation everyone. A 100 to all.

Gassho
Bobby

[Amelia]

Yes, Timo, I was going to suggest the same thing: sit at least once a day for a while, and it will start to make sense... although I think it took me two years.