Mechanics of Enlightenment

[Jundo]

If one sees the illusion of self In meditation, would life (post cushion) not be changed forever?


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This life-self-world is constantly changing forever. Like the flowing river, never as it was the moment before.

But if you are asking whether, seeing the illusion of abiding self, one is done, "fully enlightened", a finished product like a cake popping out of the oven ... I would say no.

This is much as a hike up a mountain where suddenly one may realize that mountain and hiking and hiker are one all along ... yet the hike up and down the mountain must continue in order to realize hiker, mountain and hike. One does not merely rest on one's laurels. Mountain-hiker-hike may just be experienced as Buddha-Buddhaing-Buddha ... but still the hike continues and is a continuing matter of ups and downs, constantly changing scenery, spectacular vistas and poison ivy, sometimes reaching the peak and sometimes tripping and falling in the mud.

Perhaps many of the old Buddhist and Zen story book legends misled students to believe that ... in a flash ... one was "enlightened" ... what had to be done now done. Baloney. Most Zen Buddhist folks I know ... Rinzai folks, Soto folks ... will tell ya it ain't quite so simple. In a timeless instant ... a snap of the fingers ... one may realize Emptiness, beyond me and you and love and hate and lack and gain and coming and going. A nice place to visit, but one cannot live there. That beginingless view is only where the real work begins, because it is simultaneously this world of me and you and love and hate and lack and gain and coming and going.

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

Most of us start at wanting enlightenment (or looking for something in the future that will change our life once and forever). The way Shikantaza works, it slowly changes us from wanting enlightenment (or looking in the future, feeling the lack) to enjoying each step of the journey/life itself. What if someone tells you there is no enlightenment (or one solution to all your problems) down the road, not just in Zen but in any tradition? and all you are left with is your daily life.

Gassho
Sam

[Jundo]

Most of us start at wanting enlightenment (or looking for something in the future that will change our life once and forever). The way Shikantaza works, it slowly changes us from wanting enlightenment (or looking in the future, feeling the lack) to enjoying each step of the journey/life itself. What if someone tells you there is no enlightenment (or one solution to all your problems) down the road, not just in Zen but in any tradition? and all you are left with is your daily life.

Gassho
Sam

Who said there is no enlightenment? NOT ME or any Soto Teacher I know!

Each step of the journey is now encountered as a Total Arrival in each step ... each step by step a Buddha Step.

There is no "solution to one's problems", and so many life problems remain ... yet hand in hand, one experiences a realm without problem or anything to solve. Not two.

Daily life ... the sometimes hard, sometimes easy, sometimes beautiful, sometimes ugly day-to-day slog of life ... simultaneously Beautiful Pure Land.

Who said there is "no enlightenment"? It is just that "enlightenment" in this life is never done.

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

I don't think we are saying anything different. The question is not whether there is enlightenment or not. As all great teachers have pointed out, it is "the seeking" that's the problem. It just adds one more thing to seek for. one more thing that is not there now but will complete us if we get it in the future.

I was asking a question, how would it feel if there is nothing in the end? how would it feel if there is nothing else needed to complete you?

Gassho,
Sam

[alan.r]

Who said there is "no enlightenment"? It is just that "enlightenment" in this life is never done.

Gassho, J

Thank you Jundo - this, such a difficult thing to practice, is our practice.

gassho

[Jundo]

Who said there is "no enlightenment"? It is just that "enlightenment" in this life is never done.

Gassho, J

Thank you Jundo - this, such a difficult thing to practice, is our practice.

gassho

Enlightenment might be "done" after death, maybe after some future lives when we finally get totally free of this world, these bodies, these desires, this separation of me and you and this and that.

But Enlightenment in this life (even though a key aspect of such Enlightenment is the realization that there was never anything in need of doing, and no division and frictions between me and you and this and that) is never done and has a lot of "doing" we must do to make it real while in this life. That's cause we keep on living in ... whether it is something of a dream or not ... this world of me and you and this and that.

Buddhists sometimes distinguish "Enlightenment in life" (where the bottom falls through the bucket, but we still must use the bucket to fetch water) and what is sometimes called "Pari-Nirvana" or the like (when we finally kick the bucket once and for all).

A lot of the old Buddhist stories implied that "Enlightened folks" in this life were somehow now totally beyond this life and all human weakness and pain and potential fault. For example, legends about the historical Buddha imply that, even though the Sutta books are filled with stories of him eating, getting stomach aches, growing old, defecating, getting back aches and the like, the Buddha was actually "beyond all that" in truth ... and merely put on an act of pretending to eat, get sick, defecate, etc. in order to teach us! Baloney! That is just legend making, I feel.

Rather, I believe that the Buddha pierced a viewless view in which, yes, there was no separate self to feel hunger, no time in which to age, no lack or aches and pains ... yet, simultaneously, while alive nonetheless had hunger, aches and pains and all the rest. In other words, the Buddha found the key to see through "Dukkha" ... the dissatisfaction, fear, sense of lack in such things as old age, sickness and death ... but he never actually found a "cure" for old age, sickness and death (as evidenced by the fact that, in the end, he got old, sick and died! ). He discovered another realm beyond lack and time and birth and death etc. which we call "Big B" Buddha (the Dharmakhaya, as opposed to the historical Buddha who was born and got old and died).

In other words, we can see and experience life from both ways at once. But our Practice is figuring out how to live life in a way whereby the two views are one ... and its tricky.

Kinda get the drift?

Dogen kind of touches on this in two essays of his on the famous "Fox Koan". He kinda implies that we are "free of Karma" yet (so long as we live) are "bound by Karma" at once. These seem like two conflicting propositions, but really both are just different ways of looking at the situation, both true at once.

Anyway, said too much, starting just to philosophize ... just fingers pointing at the moon now. Let's get back to the sitting cushions and realize the moon and how the moonlight shines.

Gassho, J

[dharmasponge]

I still struggle with this ;-)

If there is no striving then why bother? What's the rationale? Why get up in the morning, and if you do, why sit on the Zafu? Why not just drink tea instead...what's so special about 'sitting'?

Surely the fact that we sit on the Zafu and not the couch implies a reason, however subtle. The reason has an agenda, the dissatisfaction of life without sitting maybe?




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[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

I think that we all start sitting for a reason. Over time that reason tends to drop away and we are just left with the sitting.

As far as practice and realization go, I really like the passage at the end of Dogen's Genjokoan:

As Zen master Pao-ch'e of Mount Ma-yü was fanning himself, a monk came up and said, “The nature of the wind is constancy. There is no place it does not reach. Why use a fan?” Pao-ch'e answered, “You only know the nature of the wind is constancy. You haven't yet grasped the meaning of its reaching every place.” “What is the meaning of its reaching every place?” asked the monk. The master only fanned himself. The monk bowed deeply.

So, although we already have the air of buddha nature, unless we fan ourselves with practice, it will remain unseen.

Gassho
Andy

[Shinzan]

I've heard it said, "enlightenment is not a noun; it's a verb." It's a relationship to how we live our life.
Shinzan

[Jundo]

I still struggle with this ;-)

If there is no striving then why bother? What's the rationale? Why get up in the morning, and if you do, why sit on the Zafu? Why not just drink tea instead...what's so special about 'sitting'?

Surely the fact that we sit on the Zafu and not the couch implies a reason, however subtle. The reason has an agenda, the dissatisfaction of life without sitting maybe?




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Yes, Andy's quoting the Koan of "Master Pao-ch'e and the Fan" is right on. This is the same question that drove Dogen to cross an ocean to China: If we are "already Buddha" as claimed, why need we Practice?

Of course, sitting on the Zafu has a goal, a reason, an agenda: Namely, the goal, reason and agenda is to realize, to the marrow, that there is no ultimate goal or agenda needed, for the target is already hit from the first ... for we are "already Buddha". We go to the cushion each day to realize to the marrow that "there was no place in need of going, because such is everywhere". We Practice the Precepts as we can each day ... dropping excess desires, anger and the divisive thoughts of ignorance ... because, although we are "Buddha all along" and there is ultimately nothing in need of changing or faults for fixing, that fact tends to get hidden from our eyes when covered with excess desire, anger and ignorance (so we try to fix that ignorance!).

One can realize that in the Japanese Tea Ceremony (thus its long appreciation in the Zen world), but not so easily sitting on the sofa drinking a cola hoping to be entertained by tv re-runs while worrying about the medical exam tomorrow or the thing that happened yesterday and what your wife said today. Why?

How often do we sit, leaving all that be?

How often in life do we do any action with this attitude flooding all: To wit, that one is being the only place one need be in all time and space, the only place on can be ... doing the only things which need be done, a sacred non-doing, Buddha sitting as one sits ... Buddha sitting Buddha. It is the attitude man! If one feels in one's marrow that the moment is whole and complete ... It Is! Most important is to sit with such an attitude of Zazen as a sacred and complete act, your sitting as the Buddha Sitting, no other place or thing to do in all the universe, sitting in a light and balanced way, not dull and lethargic ... beyond goal and pursuit, in peace and equanimity ... nothing to change or fix, yet letting excess desire and anger fall away ... all such as a sacred action, the king of samādhis samādhi. Then, while sitting so ... let what be just be.

In short, we usually don't sit such way while on the sofa with a coke! One does sit so ... and is sitting sat so ... on the Zafu/

Then, rising from the Zafu one might bring this realization into all of life ... and then, only then, realize that:

Sitting on the sofa watch reruns drinking a coke is, all along, Buddha sitting on Buddha drinking Buddha, planning for tomorrow Buddha while pondering yesterday Buddha, even when hidden from our eyes! (A Koan)

Funny how that works.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Although there is nothing in need of cleaning from the first ... cleaning the cat box is just Buddha sifting Buddha poop.

It is merely that, without Practice, we don't usually realize life's litter box as so.

Though just a Buddha box filled with Buddha sand and Buddha droppings ... clean it we must, lest Buddha cat gets sick. (A Koan)

[Mp]

... rising from the Zafu one might bring this realization into all of life ...

Thank you ... I remember the first time you mentioned this and it has stuck with me ... so clear! =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Tiwala]

Is it wrong to assume that in Soto, realization of the true nature of reality is not the enlightenment that it speaks of? I mean, as it appears to me, Soto refers to enlightenment as an action (thus never ending). I feel people get confused when they hear that in Soto, one does not strive for enlightenment while sitting because the sitting itself, in Soto zen speak, (with the total abandonment of resistance and clinging) is itself enlightenment. While most people, reading enlightenment, think of something cerebral, or an experiential/intuitive understanding of some truth. I think this is where the confusion lies, especially since most Buddhism seems to refer to enlightenment as an understanding. I mean, as I understand it, in Soto, there are understandings, realizations, but they are not refered to as enlightenment. Shikantaza, not limited to the physical act of just sitting, is enlightenment.

Actually, in my silly view, there really is no enlightenment. Its just a name, as empty as everything else. Its notions are impermanent, empty, dependently existing. The coming together of these variables in action is where it springs forth from that mysterious springless spring. But because it is empty, while simultaneously not existing, it exists as everything. It is quite beyond any explanation, by its characteristicless 'nature' (to call it such is not so very accurate)

Gassho, Ben

[dharmasponge]

But...... Saying that sitting is Enlightenment doesn't make it so ( does it?).

I am exploring the Soto stance coming from a very different tradition - but Dogen and Shikantaza are both like an itch I cannot scratch. Hence the questions. I am yet to be in a position to assimilate much of the messages within the colourful, poetic language of Zen. I am more used to a very pragmatic and direct answer to questions rather than inferential open answers. I can see that once understood though this language may be more 'direct'. But at the moment, 'Buddha sitting as Buddha' means absolutely nothing to me... ;-)

What the Dharma has taught me over the last couple of decades is that I have a fundamental misapprehension of reality based upon a belief that things exist the way they appear (Emptiness). They don't (conventional reality). This is (surely) crucially important? If this is correct, and we know it is, then I feel compelled to better understand how things do exist.

This was, still is guess, my reason for sitting. But different to many here I seek an answer and experience of the Emptiness of self directly. Like being in a nightmare believing that all the nasty monsters are real. The dream person merely deciding that it's all a dream is no use at all. It's just moving the furniture around in the prison cell, not escaping. Someone's whispering in my ear "it's a dream that's all" gives me the impetus to actually wake up!

Now in the nicest possible way, my current feeble understanding of Soto tells me we're dream people just telling ourselves that it's all ok with nothing to do or change. Any thoughts of there being an inherent problem with life is an illusion as Samsara is no different to Enlightenment. Realising deeply that we don't exist in the way that we appear, waking up from the dream, realising that we're actually actors in a shitty movie is my goal.

At the moment, just sitting, sounds like, well, just sitting. My cat just sits. So does my sons teddy :-D

I however, have the facility of discriminative thought and the ability to 'know'. Why not use this facility to realise I am in a dream?

Far too much philosophising for Zen forum I know, but I appreciate you all helping me scratch my Soto itch!

_/|\_


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[Jundo]

Is it wrong to assume that in Soto, realization of the true nature of reality is not the enlightenment that it speaks of? I mean, as it appears to me, Soto refers to enlightenment as an action (thus never ending). I feel people get confused when they hear that in Soto, one does not strive for enlightenment while sitting because the sitting itself, in Soto zen speak, (with the total abandonment of resistance and clinging) is itself enlightenment. While most people, reading enlightenment, think of something cerebral, or an experiential/intuitive understanding of some truth. I think this is where the confusion lies, especially since most Buddhism seems to refer to enlightenment as an understanding. I mean, as I understand it, in Soto, there are understandings, realizations, but they are not refered to as enlightenment. Shikantaza, not limited to the physical act of just sitting, is enlightenment.

Actually, in my silly view, there really is no enlightenment. Its just a name, as empty as everything else. Its notions are impermanent, empty, dependently existing. The coming together of these variables in action is where it springs forth from that mysterious springless spring. But because it is empty, while simultaneously not existing, it exists as everything. It is quite beyond any explanation, by its characteristicless 'nature' (to call it such is not so very accurate)

Gassho, Ben

I feel that there are several faces to "Enlightenment" ... each just the Buddha Face.

I feel that one can have a mental experience of Oneness and Wholeness, the dropping of the "subject/object" divide. One can also have such an experience with the body (for example, my Teacher Nishijima used to be a long distance runner in his youth, and spoke of the physical bodily experience of the Oneness and Wholeness of Zazen as close to what was felt sometimes in long distance running) I think that some Zen folks may be a bit more on the "mental" side, and some may find their Enlightenment more on the physical side through the body. In any event, most Zen folks speak of "mind-body" as an integrated whole, so not two. Thus, we sit in Zazen mentally letting thoughts go, thereby loosening the "subject/object" divide ... but we also sit in a certain balanced posture or walk Kinhin or bow with the body.

Dogen famously described such sitting as "body and mind dropped away".

Then, rising from the cushion, we need to find how to live in a world of thoughts and actions ... a world of me and you and this and that and things to do and problems that is simultaneously that same Oneness and Wholeness.

I believe that all of that is "Faces of Enlightenment", even though, as you say, "Enlightenment" is just a word for something so often beyond words.

This was, still is guess, my reason for sitting. But different to many here I seek an answer and experience of the Emptiness of self directly. Like being in a nightmare believing that all the nasty monsters are real. The dream person merely deciding that it's all a dream is no use at all. It's just moving the furniture around in the prison cell, not escaping. Someone's whispering in my ear "it's a dream that's all" gives me the impetus to actually wake up!

I sometimes speak of our needing to "wake up" from the child's illusion that there is a "boogey-man" under the bed.



How can the child be free of the "boogey-man"? There are several approaches. One is for the child to bravely grab a baseball bat and to try to beat and threaten the boogey-man to get out of there. (However, since there really is not boogey-man, that is kind of a waste of effort). The next method is to peak under the bed, thus to see that there is nothing there. That is a good method. But he still needs to stop thinking and reifying the boogey-man at that point, otherwise the boogey-man will come back (in his mind anyway, which is where he always was).

But our Shikantaza method is simply to drop from mind and quit worrying about the "boogey-man" and when we do so ... poof ... the "boogey-man" disappears when our thoughts of "boogey-man" disappear. It was only the thoughts and worry and chasing after him that was making him "real" in the first place. In other words, the way to get rid of the "boogey-man" is to radically do nothing ... and leave him be (better, leave him not be) ... paying him "no nevermind".

Now in the nicest possible way, my current feeble understanding of Soto tells me we're dream people just telling ourselves that it's all ok with nothing to do or change. Any thoughts of there being an inherent problem with life is an illusion as Samsara is no different to Enlightenment. Realising deeply that we don't exist in the way that we appear, waking up from the dream, realising that we're actually actors in a shitty movie is my goal.

At the moment, just sitting, sounds like, well, just sitting. My cat just sits. So does my sons teddy :-D

That is rather a misunderstanding of "Just Sitting" (although, as a cat owner, I often suspect that our cat is in fact rather Zenlike naturally ... and a cat's sitting may be a kind of Zazen).

The way to realize that "the movie is not real" might be to turn on the theatre lights ... but it may also be to simply stop thinking that it is real (like the boogey-man). When we radically stop chasing boogey-men and movie dreams, what results is Oneness and Wholness and the dropping of the self-object divide.

Then, having a new experience on the true nature of the movie ... we can get back to watching it! (Actually, I do this in scary movies when they get too scary ... I just recall it is just a movie while, simultaneously, dropping the fear from my mind. It works).

The way to transcend the "subject/object" divide is to just sit, radically right to the marrow dropping thoughts of "subject vs. object" and "this and that and me and you". The way to drop thoughts and fears of tomorrow is not to do something or think something else ... but rather to stop thinking about tomorrow, and to put time measures down. The way to encounter Wholeness and Oneness is not to "do" anything ... but rather to simply stop doing thoughts of division and friction.

Tomorrow I have my annual health check with the camera to look at my tummy. A couple of years ago, a good friend died of esophageal cancer. Every once in awhile today, I get chills up my spine and my head fills with the "worst case scenario" for tomorrow. The Boogey-man is here! But, based on my Zen Training, I quickly turn to Shikantaza mind ... drop all those thoughts and fears and ... poof ... it truly feels like my fear of death, about what might be found is totally transcended. Bring on the worst diagnosis or a clean bill of health ... no worries.

Gassho, J