Mechanics of Enlightenment

[Jundo]

I listened to this. It seems very interesting, but one thing I don't understand is how sitting in the beautiful poetry of nature can help with dealing with the harsh realities of life. As far as I'm aware, it's quite impossible to deal with reality without facing it head on, without dwelling in any particular place except for that which is present before you. Isn't the primary function of the Buddhadharma to illuminate reality? Isn't what's right in front of you the very expression of the Buddhadharma, be it horrifically disgusting, terrible, sad, depressing, edgy etc? It seems to involve force to dwell in the silence, the peace love and joy. It kind of feels like a bunch of hippies babbling on and on about peace and love. ... I'm just truly baffled.

... take the slogan "everywhere I step is home" of Dogen and apply it there. When faced with harshness, with suffering, this is all there is etc. Is that a correct

No!

You obviously missed the passage from Bernie Glassman, written during one of his Zazen sittings at Auschwitz ...

"In my view, we can't heal ourselves or other people unless we bear witness. In the Zen Peacemaker Order we stress bearing witness to the wholeness of life, to every aspect of the situation that arises. So bearing witness to someone's kidnapping, assaulting, and killing a child means being every element of the situation: being the young girl, with her fear, terror, hunger, and pain; being the girl's mother, with her endless nights of grief and guilt; being the mother of the man who killed, torn between love for her son and the horror of his actions; being the families of both the killed and the killer, each with its respective pain, rage, horror, and shame; being the dark, silent cell where the girl was imprisoned; being the police officers who finally, under enormous pressure, caught the man; and being the jail cell holding the convicted man. It means being each and every element of this situation."

We bear witness to it all ... then march forth to do what is possible to prevent future men, women and children from suffering so.

When I read things like nothing to get, I feel that it's just being so engrossed in an activity that there really is nothing except that activity. Is that what is meant by nothing to attain? Shunryu Suzuki also states it similarly with his essay about bowing, saying that when bowing, there is just one complete bow encompassing the entire universe. At that moment, there is no you, or I, or Buddha, etc.

Sometimes, that is what it is ... when drinking tea, just drink tea. When running or bowing, just run or bow.

But other times, it is just totally being with what is, at it is.

When sitting in Auschwitz witnessing the fear of children, just sit in Auschwitz witnessing the fear in children.

When rising from sitting in order to march against war, to start a soup kitchen to feed hungry children ... just march, just serve soup.

Anyone who thinks our way is about some form of passivity is ignorant about our way. Our way is a Stillness (Big "S") that is sometimes still and sometimes moving to get things done.

So to attain is to not attain. So whatever we attain is indeed nothing. Is that right?

No!

This "No--thing" is not just nothing, and this Emptiness is not simply empty. It is an Emptiness that holds and manifests as the interflowing dance that is everything, each thing and all things.

daily life without thought and attempt at attainment seems absurd to me. What about the Four Great Vows?

We non-think right through thoughts and no thought ... thus, thinking-non-thinking. We vow to "save all sentient beings" in part by showing the "sentient beings" that there was never anything to save for all is as a dream (nonetheless, dream or not, let us save the frightened children from war and hunger in this world too).

It's not thinking, it's not not-thinking... but realising that transcendent reality above and beyond thinking and not thinking. Doesn't this also apply to daily life? When desiring, desire non-desire. When acting, act non-acting etc.

Maybe there is hope for you yet. You are "very very warm" in our Zen game of "pin the non-tail on the dream donkey" ...

But in the meantime, I will repeat for you too what I wrote above.

You might just try it for awhile (my advice) and ... like many folks here ... it will just non-come to you one timeless day! Like a joke that somebody tells you in a bar that you don't get until, suddenly one morning, you get it! Oh, that is what it was all about! So obvious! Silly me!

In the meantime, enough talking about it. More than enough has been said. Time to just sit and see what non-happens.

Gassho, J

[Tiwala]

Actually, a little after that passage by Bernie Glassman, the speaker says that the practice is sitting with the poetry in order to face reality. But I guess what you said is, in my opinion better, I guess.

Also the nothing I referred to is precisely (not ever precise with words, but yeah) what you are trying to express. . . I guess it all falls down on misunderstanding. Zen is a language in itself with a trmendous number of dialects with their idioms etc.

Yes, yes. Now time for silence. Thank you, thank you. Everyone !


Gassho,
Ben

Gassho, Ben

[Jundo]

'let thoughts go and not follow them' - I think that this is incredibly hard and a 'goal' in and of itself."

I don't get that instruction either. I too feel it is a goal in itself. Whenever I try not to get caught up or try to wake up from thought, my sitting feels like any meditation with an object. May be I am misunderstanding the instruction but I completely agree with you it is misleading. In practice I let my thinking also be as is. Just like everything that's happening is fine, getting caught up in my thoughts is fine too. Nothing that happens in sitting is wrong. There is nothing in sitting like "oh this shouldn't be happening" or "I need to fix this".

YES! ... however ... NO!!

Having thoughts is fine, not having thoughts is fine, getting caught up in thoughts or not getting caught up in thoughts is fine. Nothing that happens in sitting is wrong, and there is nothing to fix. There is no bad Zazen, never was and never can be.

NONETHELESS ...

There are many things in sitting that can be wrong and we need to fix. If caught up in thoughts, things are not fine and that is bad Zazen. Open the hand of thought, put down the thoughts, and get uncaught.

Only then might you encounter the clarity, illumination and equanimity which might let one truly realize why there was "nothing in need of fixing" even as there was stuff to fix!

Does it sound to you like I am saying diametrically opposed things? Yes, that is a Koan.

To "let thoughts go and not follow them" is most certainly a goal! Who said we don't have goals?

And when one attains this "letting thoughts go" one may attain a clarity, illumination and equanimity that shines right through and through both "thoughts" and "absence of thoughts", that is so available and all encompassing that there is no goal to hit and never was!

How to say it a better way?

There is a goal we hit by the goal of not having a goal ... which is a goal we can hit only by being goalless.

And when we hit this goalless goal we realize that the goal was already always hit from the start ... but our own ignorance and delusive thoughts kept us from realizing so.

One day Governor Liu asked Master Nan-Chuan,
“Let’s say someone raised a goose in the bottle. The goose has grown so much that it can no longer come out the bottleneck. Now without destroying the bottle, without harming the goose in anyway, how would master get the goose out?
Master: “Governor!”
Liu: “Yes?”
Master: “It is out.”

Gassho, J

[Myosha]

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward

[Mp]

There is a goal we hit by the goal of not having a goal ... which is a goal we can hit only by being goalless.

Thank you Jundo ... 🙏

Gassho
Shingen

[Jinyo]

Hello there,

I just wanted to say I have gained a lot from this thread.

I think the best way to explain is to say it's been a bit like the past two years, since joining Tree Leaf, speeding rapidly through my mind.
All of my niggles, doubts, burning questions, lapses of faith, irritations and sense of gratitude to the teachers/teaching here is in this thread.

I think we can all agree - no one on this path is home and dry. It's a continual process and one we commit to day by day.

I think we can also agree that a question chases a question chases a question. Nothing wrong with asking questions but the mind does have a tendency to keep chasing round in circles.

Sitting doesn't always proffer release - it's the place where we're probably most aware of the circling. But it's also the place where we can experience, stillness, peace and a state of equanimity.

I can not begin to put into words how precious this is and how it holds the key to all meaningful ACTION in our lives.

I used to get niggled when Jundo said - 'come on - it's not rocket science you know' (sorry for paraphrasing Jundo). Straight away my mind was - but this - but that - but, but, but!

I think we can put layer of complexity upon layer of complexity - but really 'just sitting' is incredibly pure and simple if we allow it to be ( and also - at times - incredibly hard if we allow it to be).

These poor words of mine don't fully capture it - as others have said more eloquently - it has to be experienced to be understood.

Gassho

Willow

[dharmasponge]

I feel like my inability to grasp this has irritated some - I apologies if it has tried your patience.

Sometimes an intellectual grasp is a good starting point. I spent a long time studying the Prasangika and Nargajuna (tricky ) and that was invaluable. But there you go. In terms of actually trying this, I have been sitting every morning at 5am for a long time now....I'm not new to the discipline of practice. Not new to Sheng Yens teachings on Silent Illumination, I believe the inspiration for Dogens Shikantaza. I am new however to the Soto dialect. What might seem poetic logic to some, to others is indecipherable , like me ...that's what I have been trying to grasp.

Several posts ago Jundo said enough talking, time to sit. Maybe he is right, despite being drawn to a Shikantaza for some reason, maybe my Karma isn't up to it...

Thanks for all your replies, it's been fascinating :-)

...back to the breath....

Tony... _/|\_


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tiwala]

We are not always held down by our karma. Let's keep on sitting! Keep pushing that pushless push or whatever. We're both on the same boat here. Don't give up!

Gassho, Ben

[shikantazen]

Hi Tony,

Here is a good link to the Silent Illumination practice

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2012/11/8/you-are-already-enlightened.html

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

Here is a good link to the Silent Illumination practice

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2012/11/8/you-are-already-enlightened.html

Gassho,
Sam

Let me explain a fine point on how to define "Enlightenment" in such essay ... but I believe that such is a vital point, and makes all the difference (and sameness!) in the world.

Guo Gu defines "Enlightenment" as some states or stages that are reached ...

The clarity of the second stage is like looking through a spotless window. You can see through it very well, almost as if the window were not there, but it is there. In the second stage, the self lies dormant but subtle self-grasping is present. In other words, seeing through a window, even a very clean one, is not the same as seeing through no window at all. Seeing through no window is one way of describing the state of enlightenment, which is the third stage. In utter clarity, the mind is unmoving. Why? Because there is no self-referential mind.

The third stage of silent illumination is the realization of quiescence and wakefulness, stillness and awareness, samadhi and prajna, all of which are different ways to describe mind’s natural state. Experiencing it for the first time is like suddenly dropping a thousand pounds from your shoulders—the heavy burdens of self-attachment, vexations, and habitual tendencies. Prior to that, you may not know exactly what self-attachment or vexations are. But once you are free from them, you clearly recognize them.

Self-attachment, vexations, and habitual tendencies run deep. So practitioners must work hard to experience enlightenment again and again until they can simply rest in mind’s natural state. The key is to practice diligently but seek no results.

By practicing in this way, our life gradually becomes completely integrated with wisdom and compassion, and even traces of “enlightenment” vanish. We are able to offer ourselves to everyone, like a lighthouse, helping all those who come our way, responding to their needs with*out contrivance. This is the perfection of silent illumination.

You might ask, “I’ve been practicing for ten years now—exactly when is this going to happen to me?” The difference between delusion and enlightenment is only a moment away. In an instant, you can be free from the constructs of your identity and see through the veil of your fabrications.

We also experience and prize such momentless moments of Shikantaza. So what is the subtle difference?

I believe that such moments can be over-valued and over-emphacized by Teachers as the state to be reached and maintained ... and they confuse the point by saying that the goal is to get better and better at reaching such states and maintaining them. I believe that such Teachings send students on a chase for certain experiences like a "pot of gold under the distant rainbow". Rather, I view such moments as "reference points" that we sometimes encounter on our long hike up the Buddha-mountain ... a moment perhaps when the trees drop away and clouds clear and one sees without obstruction. But the point is not to stay in that place or get better at turning all of the mountain into a place like that.

Rather, we suddenly realize that all of the mountain ... the whole hike ... was Buddha all along. We can get on with the hike ... up and down ... cloudy or sunny, grass fields or dense forests ... and now experience that every step by step up and down the mountain was Buddha hiking Buddha from startless-start to finishless-finish. Such moments are very helpful for us to see such, but not the point ... any more than seeing a certain famous waterfall and snapping a photo is the point of the trip. Nor is the hike about arriving at any destination or some pot of gold over the hill.

The point proves to be Total Arrival in each step by step up and down the mountain, and the "treasure" ever always already in hand.

A subtle difference.

The funny thing is that, even though we come to see the beginner's bottom of the mountain and the high points of the mountain as all Buddha ... and "no place to go" because the mountain was ever and always underfoot (and your foot too!) ... still, a fellow practicing 30 years is probably better able to realize that fact (of "all is Buddha Buddhaing Buddha") better than a fellow practicing 30 minutes or 30 days.

We come to realize that all the hike is Buddha, each step by step ... both when the path is clear and when we stumble into poison ivy or fall into the mud (nonetheless, the experienced climber gets better at avoiding the stumbles). We do get better at seeing all the mountain as Buddha and the total hike as constant arrival ... and we do get better at avoiding the pitfalls of excess desire, anger and divisive thoughts which blind us to that Truth.

As I wrote above, students can be sent into a "chase of the tail", a "wild goose-in-the bottle chase":

PS - Many Buddhists are so good at chasing their tails that the chase goes on for (traditionally) lifetimes! Others realize that such was here all along, and there were no lifetimes even as we dreamed of lifetimes. If you dream of stages and progress, mountains to cross ... sure enough, one must cross them, climb them and reach for progress. But when one realizes that the dream of the mountain was ever underfoot Buddha climbing Buddha ... abracadabra ... the mountains are crossed.

So, this is why I do not care for how Sheng-yen and his student explain Silent Illumination, and they are not alone by any means. Sheng-yen, in some of his writings, was even more insistent on attaining certain unusual Samadhi mind states as the "stages" or goals of Practice. Pages 17 to 19 here ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=tSKb00ZgtiYC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=sheng-yen+stages+silent+illumination&source=bl&ots=aYZkB5Xeb1&sig=zEoFkevfI77zs9QEhb3y-AiUaDY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NXyyUv-UKYTxkQX8_oAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=sheng-yen%20stages%20silent%20illumination&f=false

I do like the closing statement of the essay ...

emember that practice is much more than following a particular method or going through stages on a path. Practice is life and all of its “furniture.” Practice helps us see the room and not attach to the furniture. Enlightenment is not something special—it is the natural freedom of this moment, here and now, unstained by our fabrications.

That is the sameness that dances all differences.

Gassho, J

[Joyo]

Zazen on the cushion is all there is, Enlightenment realized, not one drop to add not one drop to take away ... Wholly Holy Whole, Completely Complete ... Buddha sitting Buddha ... Buddha Buddhaing Buddha. Enlightenment is sitting itself.

But that is when sitting on the cushion!

Rising from the cushion (as we do and must), all of life manifests and is manifested as Zazen in its Vast meaning ... in the kitchen, the child's nursery, the office, driving the car ... Enlightenment realized, not one drop to add not one drop to take away ... Wholly Holy Whole, Completely Complete ... Buddha sitting Buddha ... Buddha Buddhaing Buddha.

One will have various momentless moments of "a non-conceptual experience of Emptiness" now and then ... but such realization (piercing, grocking) is not enough, for more vital is the realization (making it real, bringing to life) of how one thus lives. THAT is Enlightenment as Practice itself ... for Enlightenment must be put into Practice.

Emptiness, beyond me and you and love and hate and lack and gain and coming and going ... must simultaneously be realized (grocked) to be, and realized (brought to life) in/as/through this world of me and you and love and hate and lack and gain and coming and going. That is the real trick that takes Practice!

Gassho, J

Jundo, wonderful teaching, thank you!!!

Gassho,
Treena

[Jundo]

Jundo, wonderful teaching, thank you!!!

Gassho,
Treena

Actually, I am like a broken record when it comes to saying stuff like so.

Gassho, j

[Myosha]

Jundo, what is a "record" that you speak of? "Sounds like 20th Century to me!"^^

Thank you.


Gassho,
Edward

[shikantazen]

YES! ... however ... NO!!

Having thoughts is fine, not having thoughts is fine, getting caught up in thoughts or not getting caught up in thoughts is fine. Nothing that happens in sitting is wrong, and there is nothing to fix. There is no bad Zazen, never was and never can be.

NONETHELESS ...

There are many things in sitting that can be wrong and we need to fix. If caught up in thoughts, things are not fine and that is bad Zazen. Open the hand of thought, put down the thoughts, and get uncaught.

Only then might you encounter the clarity, illumination and equanimity which might let one truly realize why there was "nothing in need of fixing" even as there was stuff to fix!

Does it sound to you like I am saying diametrically opposed things? Yes, that is a Koan.

To "let thoughts go and not follow them" is most certainly a goal! Who said we don't have goals?

And when one attains this "letting thoughts go" one may attain a clarity, illumination and equanimity that shines right through and through both "thoughts" and "absence of thoughts", that is so available and all encompassing that there is no goal to hit and never was!

How to say it a better way?

There is a goal we hit by the goal of not having a goal ... which is a goal we can hit only by being goalless.

And when we hit this goalless goal we realize that the goal was already always hit from the start ... but our own ignorance and delusive thoughts kept us from realizing so.



Gassho, J

Hi Jundo,

Tony reminds me of myself few months back. Trying to make sense of this practice, getting frustrated and even thinking about going back to breath following. Part of that could be attributed to the questioning mind and the lack of ability to take things on blind trust and give sitting the time to work. But I feel there is another major reason why (some) students are getting frustrated. I don't know how to put this. I tried telling this several times but couldn't muster the courage to do so. But I am going to do this now as I don't want more students get frustrated and lose hope in this wonderful practice. The below is completely my own view and I could be completely wrong but this is sincerely and truly what I feel.

With all due respect, I feel the way you express the method is kind of misleading and confusing at times. You understand the method very well. You are very compassionate and try to help everyone by taking time to answer the questions in detail. You are in every thread repeatedly trying to explain things. But have you ever thought why you have to keep repeating things like (as you said) a "broken record"? Part of the reason is that the method is simple yet subtle and very different from traditional methods. But the other reason is that the way you explain it makes it difficult to understand especially to beginners. What you say may be legally/academically correct and even beautiful but the usability of it to beginners is questionable to me. Few examples

- What could buddha buddhaing buddha mean to beginners? I probably need enlightenment for me to understand statements like that. That certainly does not feel to me like a practice instruction for a beginner to understand and put to use.
- All the pairs of opposites you use makes what you say harder to understand (for example instead of saying "it will come to you one day" you say "it will just non-come to you one timeless day!" and then you add "Time to just sit and see what non-happens"). I understand there is nothing to get in this method and there is no concept of time/space in an awakened mind. But telling that once is enough. Don't you think using that kind of language in everything you say makes it more confusing?
- For the sitting instruction, you give a complex description and ask students to sit with all of that in the mind/attitude/bones. I believe the instructions for the method should be simple and easy to follow. The method is subtle and the more things you keep in mind or the more you try to do the more there is the chance of doing it wrong. Why do some places like Antaiji sometimes ask students to sit without any instructions? Moreover you can't nail down this practice in any fixed set of instructions no matter how complex and beautiful they are.
- I feel you make it sound like doing this method a bit incorrectly or differently (from what you instruct) doesn't work. For example Brad Warner and some other teachers tell not to worry about thoughts and instruct to let thinking be as it is. You teach students to keep waking up from thought (which is fine too and can be one way to do it) and insist any other way is incorrect. Some teachers don't correct minor things as long as the student's overall direction is correct. The sitting will eventually help the students to figure out the way themselves. What is more important in this type of sitting is to trust and not be intent on following the right way or any fixed way. On the other hand correcting minor things or insisting the method be followed correctly will only discourage the student and may lead them to give up the practice. I believe nobody will be doomed forever for not doing some minor instructions correctly. My personal experience has been that if I leave my thinking as it is (not trying to wake up a lot or not trying to purposefully think something) my thinking slows down on its own. There is some seriousness already in our committing to sit and I felt that is enough and there is no need to do anything more with the mind or the thought processes. There is no need to try to keep waking up from thought. Any of the attempts to wake up makes me feel like I am in control and doing something to get somewhere and there is something wrong with what is already happening. I can tell myself there is nothing to fix but then that sounds so artificial when I am at the same time repeatedly trying to fix something. Also whenever I tried using it, there is a heaviness/trance-likeness to it which are usually associated with meditation following an object. I feel it may be used as a technique initially that later leads to pure shikantaza but mixing it with all the wonderful descriptions about shikantaza and then telling people to follow a method will definitely confuse beginners. It is exactly same as telling people to follow breath and adding wonderful descriptions of shikantaza and saying breath following is shikantaza.

I am sorry for this post but I have spent many months confused by what you said even though you have been only trying to help. I learnt a lot from the senior students here and in fact after few months of sitting one post by some senior student made me suddenly realize the correct way to practice. I am sure I might have said lot of stupid/incorrect things in this post but I also feel I have a point which hopefully I made clear. Please excuse my ignorance. Also there is no disrespect here. There is only agony and a desire for others not to be mislead. Also please don't get me wrong. I'm only talking about the practice related stuff. Lot of other things that you say are beautiful and explain things clearly to me. Also I'm sure your practice related instruction will make much more sense to senior students and other teachers. It is only the usefulness to beginners that I am talking about.

Gassho,
Sam

[Myosha]

Hello,

Throw it all away. Do or don't.


Gassho,
Edward