Spiritual Friendship

[Omoi Otoshi]

Thank you Dave and Willow,
Gassho,
Pontus

[Jundo]

Why is Shikantaza such as such is, thorough searching-non-searching, radical giving up of the race?

Simply to break through that such is such all along, you are such all along ... the Holy Whole Whirling Interpenetrating is what we are.

Yet folks run away, saying "this is not powerful enough" "this is not the doorway" "this is not what I imagine I need".

Fools. Dogs chasing their tales. Perhaps they will find it with the next book or fancy teaching.

Just sit, AS RIGHT THROUGH AND THROUGH what one is all along.

Holy Whole Whirling Interpenetrating.

[Stephanie]

Jundo, your arrogance and gall continue to astonish me. I resisted posting anything here - despite feeling an injustice had been done to a dear friend - out of wanting to 'let it be' and not wanting to inadvertently muddy the waters further. But this is too much. Insulting and diminishing someone who cannot publicly defend himself here because you took away that option.

For anyone who may want to know the truth - Chet did not choose to leave without saying goodbye. Jundo pressured him to leave and deactivated his account before he had time to fully respond. Why did Jundo have Chet leave? Because he hadn't done and would not yet do Jukai? Because he didn't participate in anything other than the forum? Unless I am mistaken and something very recently changed, there are many others here who have not done Jukai, some of whom have been here a while. Many have stated they never intend to do so (Jundo has refused to deactivate my account despite my long ago declaration I will not join Treeleaf; if you see this as an invitation, Jundo, go right ahead). And Chet may not have participated in every single thing at Treeleaf but he certainly did more than post to the forum; he was one of the most regular G+ sitters and a regular member of the Tea Party, and i believe also studied the Precepts. As far as i can tell there are currently people posting here who do nothing more than post.

The reason I believe Chet was given the boot was because he criticized Treeleaf. Understandable, but sad, as I see getting rid of dissenters as not something a wise or 'balanced' person does. Critique can keep a community on its toes and keep it from sinking into stasis or complacency. I think Chet provided a valuable service here and truly did feel a part of this community - though as far as i can tell seems to be at peace with what happened as it confirmed some of his concerns about TL.

No one is a greater advocate of seeing the perfection of 'just this' than Chet. That is his constant reminder to me. But he also has something most other Treeleafers don't seem to have - a living Question, a fire that keeps him looking at everything and asking 'What is this?' There is nothing particularly special or heroic about this - a lot of practitioners have this. But Treeleaf seems to have a unique capacity for weeding them out, turning them off or turning them away. The culture here rewards complacence and passivity. I see so many here so full of answers, some of their own and some spoonfed by Jundo. Do any of you feel that slight anxiety of having made a nest too soon? That is your own Question urging you not to tranquilize it. It is not a matter of 'not enough,' it is a matter of not letting oneself fall asleep. It is no more self-centered to question than to not question a community. The self very much loves the false reassurance of being a member of a group, having some safety and status. I see people all too eager here to be the ones with 'the answers.' People who become priests far too easily, people who seem to compete to be the first yes man or yes woman. That's death to a living community and death to truth, the accretion of dogma and political ambition. False humility is a very comfortable hidey hole for ego.

It can help to get some outside perspective. I believe the more people like Chet who are turned away, the deader Treeleaf becomes. No one will question the legitimate concerns that face any community limited by its identity and 'brand.' My experience here - and I DID do zazenkai, Precepts study, and many other things here - made me deeply question the problems of teaching Zen online. I think making a forum the central mode of communication encourages people to stay in their heads and identify with ideas far more than in a 'brick and mortar' sangha where other more subtle forms of communication are a major part of the dynamic. Without people like Chet who value(d) Treeleaf for what good it had to offer but question and critique its limitations, it is only a matter of time before the Dharma soil grows infertile.

[Jundo]

Stephanie,

I think that mean and untrue about my treatment of Chet. I will stake any credibility and reputation assigned me in the many years of this Sangha, and all the people here who know me, to say that. Why are you making up a story?

I never pressured Chet to leave, and he is always welcome back. I never pressured him to take Jukai, but thought it good for him, and bad to be afraid of commitment.

Master Hakuin might have simply said "Is that so?" when presented with a false accusation. I am not the type.

Thank you for saving us here at this community, as you pop in every few months to do. I hope you find your way, and please don't be so angry.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - As I posted when it happened in this thread ...

Chet (Disastermouse), against my recommendation that he stay, has said he needs to "step away" from participation here. I am sorry to hear that, and encouraged him to stay. I also wrote him that he is welcome back at any time. I believe that, over the years he has been a member here, this is not the first time. I deactivated his account, so he cannot receive PMs at this time (should anyone wish to write him, I will take the liberty of passing on his email if you write me).

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post90532

[Jinyo]

Willow, I agree with you more or less. I thnk we all have to determine when we need time to ourselves. Sometimes it's simply not best to stay for the individual or the community,regardless of what that community is.

For me personally, I never "intentionally" left the sangha and definitely had no problem with it, or anyone in it. But during our first Ango and following Jukai I simply have had a rough time in life. I ended up withdrawing without realizing I was withdrawaing then the years start to go by. But I'm glad I am back, at least for this moment. Nice to see new faces too. Funny thing, it was usually Chet who would say " So are you sitting still? Have you blown off Treeleaf totally?"

I can understand why folsk would want people to say goodbye for whatever reason they are leaving. But sometimes life is just not like that.We should learn to accept that as ell. Sometimes even good friends drift apart until there is no more contact, with no reason or rhyme. Sometimes they just pop back in one another's life with no thought of "Hello"'s.

But that's just my view, for whatever it's worth.

_/\_ Dave

Hi Dave - I understand what you say.

I think that's why I stressed it's just a personal viewpoint of mine. Probably have too many issues in my own personal history around people leaving without explanation. It's all practice


Willow

[RichardH]

Jundo, your arrogance and gall continue to astonish me. I resisted posting anything here - despite feeling an injustice had been done to a dear friend - out of wanting to 'let it be' and not wanting to inadvertently muddy the waters further. But this is too much. Insulting and diminishing someone who cannot publicly defend himself here because you took away that option.

For anyone who may want to know the truth - Chet did not choose to leave without saying goodbye. Jundo pressured him to leave and deactivated his account before he had time to fully respond. Why did Jundo have Chet leave? Because he hadn't done and would not yet do Jukai? Because he didn't participate in anything other than the forum? Unless I am mistaken and something very recently changed, there are many others here who have not done Jukai, some of whom have been here a while. Many have stated they never intend to do so (Jundo has refused to deactivate my account despite my long ago declaration I will not join Treeleaf; if you see this as an invitation, Jundo, go right ahead). And Chet may not have participated in every single thing at Treeleaf but he certainly did more than post to the forum; he was one of the most regular G+ sitters and a regular member of the Tea Party, and i believe also studied the Precepts. As far as i can tell there are currently people posting here who do nothing more than post.

The reason I believe Chet was given the boot was because he criticized Treeleaf. Understandable, but sad, as I see getting rid of dissenters as not something a wise or 'balanced' person does. Critique can keep a community on its toes and keep it from sinking into stasis or complacency. I think Chet provided a valuable service here and truly did feel a part of this community - though as far as i can tell seems to be at peace with what happened as it confirmed some of his concerns about TL.

No one is a greater advocate of seeing the perfection of 'just this' than Chet. That is his constant reminder to me. But he also has something most other Treeleafers don't seem to have - a living Question, a fire that keeps him looking at everything and asking 'What is this?' There is nothing particularly special or heroic about this - a lot of practitioners have this. But Treeleaf seems to have a unique capacity for weeding them out, turning them off or turning them away. The culture here rewards complacence and passivity. I see so many here so full of answers, some of their own and some spoonfed by Jundo. Do any of you feel that slight anxiety of having made a nest too soon? That is your own Question urging you not to tranquilize it. It is not a matter of 'not enough,' it is a matter of not letting oneself fall asleep. It is no more self-centered to question than to not question a community. The self very much loves the false reassurance of being a member of a group, having some safety and status. I see people all too eager here to be the ones with 'the answers.' People who become priests far too easily, people who seem to compete to be the first yes man or yes woman. That's death to a living community and death to truth, the accretion of dogma and political ambition. False humility is a very comfortable hidey hole for ego.

It can help to get some outside perspective. I believe the more people like Chet who are turned away, the deader Treeleaf becomes. No one will question the legitimate concerns that face any community limited by its identity and 'brand.' My experience here - and I DID do zazenkai, Precepts study, and many other things here - made me deeply question the problems of teaching Zen online. I think making a forum the central mode of communication encourages people to stay in their heads and identify with ideas far more than in a 'brick and mortar' sangha where other more subtle forms of communication are a major part of the dynamic. Without people like Chet who value(d) Treeleaf for what good it had to offer but question and critique its limitations, it is only a matter of time before the Dharma soil grows infertile.

This was predictable. I am surprised it took so long. Since I'm just another dusty member here, and not a teacher or ordained sangha... I'll be stinky. The tag team troll is tiresome. Jundo is incredibly patient and open, and lets things slide here that would get anyone summarily booted from bricks and mortar Sangha. You would be booted. Chet would be booted. Without ceremony. OUT!. That's all. There are a lot of sweet people at treeleaf. I ain't sweet.

Gassho. kojip

[Dosho]

Stephaine,

I honestly want what is best for Chet and told him my feelings directly at the tea party on Sunday. He told me he holds no ill will towards Treeleaf, believing it just isn't for him. I told him I thought it was exactly the place for him to be, but that I respect his decision. Even Chet said Jundo giving him the boot might finally make him choose a path and whether that's here or elsewhere, I wish him the best.

As for you, I don't think you are doing anything here constructive for Chet and, in my opinion, you may actually be hurting him. Once again you have composed a multiple paragraph diatribe that basically boils down to the following: Jundo is bad, Chet approves of my practice, so that makes all my views valid. Chet has obviously been a good friend to you and I applaud that, but don't use him as a crutch for trying to prove your points. The last time you and I spoke was at the tea party where you were talking over everyone and I asked you to stop. I haven't seen you back since.

If you have something constructive to say, that's fine. Otherwise, find the path that rings true for you and leave the rest of us out of it. You may say that I'm being spoonfed by Jundo, but actually the opposite is true. He taught me to stand on my own two feet and not to let people walk all over me, him included. I honestly wish you the best, but please hear what I was trying to say that day at the tea party: Stop spouting so many opinions and actually listen to others, especially the ones who disagree with you.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Mp]

Jundo, your arrogance and gall continue to astonish me. I resisted posting anything here - despite feeling an injustice had been done to a dear friend - out of wanting to 'let it be' and not wanting to inadvertently muddy the waters further. But this is too much. Insulting and diminishing someone who cannot publicly defend himself here because you took away that option.

For anyone who may want to know the truth - Chet did not choose to leave without saying goodbye. Jundo pressured him to leave and deactivated his account before he had time to fully respond. Why did Jundo have Chet leave? Because he hadn't done and would not yet do Jukai? Because he didn't participate in anything other than the forum? Unless I am mistaken and something very recently changed, there are many others here who have not done Jukai, some of whom have been here a while. Many have stated they never intend to do so (Jundo has refused to deactivate my account despite my long ago declaration I will not join Treeleaf; if you see this as an invitation, Jundo, go right ahead). And Chet may not have participated in every single thing at Treeleaf but he certainly did more than post to the forum; he was one of the most regular G+ sitters and a regular member of the Tea Party, and i believe also studied the Precepts. As far as i can tell there are currently people posting here who do nothing more than post.

The reason I believe Chet was given the boot was because he criticized Treeleaf. Understandable, but sad, as I see getting rid of dissenters as not something a wise or 'balanced' person does. Critique can keep a community on its toes and keep it from sinking into stasis or complacency. I think Chet provided a valuable service here and truly did feel a part of this community - though as far as i can tell seems to be at peace with what happened as it confirmed some of his concerns about TL.

No one is a greater advocate of seeing the perfection of 'just this' than Chet. That is his constant reminder to me. But he also has something most other Treeleafers don't seem to have - a living Question, a fire that keeps him looking at everything and asking 'What is this?' There is nothing particularly special or heroic about this - a lot of practitioners have this. But Treeleaf seems to have a unique capacity for weeding them out, turning them off or turning them away. The culture here rewards complacence and passivity. I see so many here so full of answers, some of their own and some spoonfed by Jundo. Do any of you feel that slight anxiety of having made a nest too soon? That is your own Question urging you not to tranquilize it. It is not a matter of 'not enough,' it is a matter of not letting oneself fall asleep. It is no more self-centered to question than to not question a community. The self very much loves the false reassurance of being a member of a group, having some safety and status. I see people all too eager here to be the ones with 'the answers.' People who become priests far too easily, people who seem to compete to be the first yes man or yes woman. That's death to a living community and death to truth, the accretion of dogma and political ambition. False humility is a very comfortable hidey hole for ego.

It can help to get some outside perspective. I believe the more people like Chet who are turned away, the deader Treeleaf becomes. No one will question the legitimate concerns that face any community limited by its identity and 'brand.' My experience here - and I DID do zazenkai, Precepts study, and many other things here - made me deeply question the problems of teaching Zen online. I think making a forum the central mode of communication encourages people to stay in their heads and identify with ideas far more than in a 'brick and mortar' sangha where other more subtle forms of communication are a major part of the dynamic. Without people like Chet who value(d) Treeleaf for what good it had to offer but question and critique its limitations, it is only a matter of time before the Dharma soil grows infertile.

I have been watching this thread and many times want to say something, but kept quiet. I believe that sometimes people just need to hash things out, get off their chest ... but I do have an issue with the way you do things Stephanie. I can see that you have concern for Chet, but Chet is a big boy and is very capable of speaking or taking care of himself.

I feel Stephanie that you should take sometime and look at why you feel the need to attack for the sake of yourself and others ... the old saying, "fight fire with fire" is not always the best. For me, I find Chet to have a great understanding and really tries hard to understand why things are they way they are ... but sometimes spends too much time thinking/analyzing and not enough time just doing.

I agree that we all should be able to ask the hard questions and it is evident that this IS ALLOWED here at Treeleaf ... I have seen it time and time again. But let me ask this, but please know this comes from the heart and nothing more ... "If it is so bad here and you dislike the teacher here, then why do you stay?" "Why do you just pop in here and there to attack and put people down with little or one-sided information?" Here is an example ... I have a wonderful friend who was in a bad relationship, but I supported her, listened to her, and gave advice when asked ... but there comes a time when I had to say, "If you are so unhappy, why do you stay?".

And just for the record Stephanie ... Jundo is a wonderful teacher with great patience, compassion, dedication, and I have the utmost respect for him!

And these are just my thoughts, from my heart.

Gassho
Michael

[Hans]

Hello Stephanie,

a lot of the points you make are actually very important in a general sense IMHO and we do indeed have to take care in the West that we don't end up with a dead and complacent form of meditation that we just happen to label Zen for marketing purposes. Jundo and Taigu are big boys and definitely need no defending, and guess what, even Unsui don't always agree with everything their teachers say.

Since you felt the need to personally attack Jundo on Dosho Port's blog on the 25th of November (please correct me if I am wrong), a few days before Chet left this forum, I cannot but think that you saw this thread as yet another opportunity to tell the world what an asshole you think Jundo is.

You wrote:

"It sickens me that people like Jundo Cohen ride in on their high horse on ‘scandals’ like this and use the opportunity to promote their neutered version of Zen. Is that what we’re headed toward – a Zen where fewer teachers have sexual peccadilloes and alcohol problems but also have less insight, power, and life-and-death intensity?"

So I guess most of us got the message, most of us are adults, and most of us are capable of deciding with whom to practise and in what kind of environment we want to do that. In case you really care about us practitioners I do wish to thank you for your concern, I really do, but it's kinda hard not to see your last posting as yet another ad hominem attack. If you ever want to exchange views on dharma related topics, by all means send me a PM or an email.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Hogen]

I have nothing more to add except that I think Treeleaf has the room for the more docile members as well as the ones perhaps with more of an edge. That, to me, is what Sangha is all about. I hope Chet returns.

I do not accept that people are openly invited to Jundo and Taigu's kitchen and criticize their cooking. Not simple questioning, but disparaging what has been offered. It's hard to ask a member to leave, but as Kojip explains above, I doubt behavior like that is tolerated in any sangha.

[Jinyo]

Hello Stephanie,

a lot of the points you make are actually very important in a general sense IMHO and we do indeed have to take care in the West that we don't end up with a dead and complacent form of meditation that we just happen to label Zen for marketing purposes. Jundo and Taigu are big boys and definitely need no defending, and guess what, even Unsui don't always agree with everything their teachers say.

Since you felt the need to personally attack Jundo on Dosho Port's blog on the 25th of November (please correct me if I am wrong), a few days before Chet left this forum, I cannot but think that you saw this thread as yet another opportunity to tell the world what an asshole you think Jundo is.

You wrote:

"It sickens me that people like Jundo Cohen ride in on their high horse on ‘scandals’ like this and use the opportunity to promote their neutered version of Zen. Is that what we’re headed toward – a Zen where fewer teachers have sexual peccadilloes and alcohol problems but also have less insight, power, and life-and-death intensity?"

So I guess most of us got the message, most of us are adults, and most of us are capable of deciding with whom to practise and in what kind of environment we want to do that. In case you really care about us practitioners I do wish to thank you for your concern, I really do, but it's kinda hard not to see your last posting as yet another ad hominem attack. If you ever want to exchange views on dharma related topics, by all means send me a PM or an email.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Hans I agree with your first paragraph.

I wasn't aware of the Dosho Port post so I had a look. I was so very, very tired by the end of it - and that was just skim and scan.
The first few months of joining Tree Leaf I realised there were so many blogs out there - people on the left, people on the right, people in the middle. Most of it with an American slant - Zen is pretty thin on the ground in the UK.

After a while I decided it was not only information overload - but pretty repetitive and at times pretty petty.

I'm really glad that I decided to place my energy here. I really do believe that nothing further needs to be added. Tree Leaf provides a reading list that is a source of in-depth study for years. Why waste time on the fragmented opinions of dozens of people when there is a whole library of study sharing in the thoughts of individuals who have given their life to the study/practice and dissemination of the dharma.

Why not build up relationships here with a few people who are commited to this Sangha and helping each other rather than endlessly searching elsewhere? I try to avoid categorising people - because what does it mean to be 'rough around the edges' or docile and sweet? We all have many edges to our personalities here - and sometimes - in practice - none at all. A single word can cut with a sharper edge than a thousand if uttered with integrity.

Just a few thoughts - and probably too many.

Gassho

Willow

[Shugen]

Willow,

I quite like what you posted.

Gassho

Ron


Shugen

[galen]

Hans I agree with your first paragraph.

I wasn't aware of the Dosho Port post so I had a look. I was so very, very tired by the end of it - and that was just skim and scan.
The first few months of joining Tree Leaf I realised there were so many blogs out there - people on the left, people on the right, people in the middle. Most of it with an American slant - Zen is pretty thin on the ground in the UK.

After a while I decided it was not only information overload - but pretty repetitive and at times pretty petty.

I'm really glad that I decided to place my energy here. I really do believe that nothing further needs to be added. Tree Leaf provides a reading list that is a source of in-depth study for years. Why waste time on the fragmented opinions of dozens of people when there is a whole library of study sharing in the thoughts of individuals who have given their life to the study/practice and dissemination of the dharma.

Why not build up relationships here with a few people who are commited to this Sangha and helping each other rather than endlessly searching elsewhere? I try to avoid categorising people - because what does it mean to be 'rough around the edges' or docile and sweet? We all have many edges to our personalities here - and sometimes - in practice - none at all. A single word can cut with a sharper edge than a thousand if uttered with integrity.

Just a few thoughts - and probably too many.

Gassho

Willow

Well said.


Gassho

[Stephanie]

Let's just keep it simple: I agree that I shouldn't be posting here and have tried to keep myself from doing so, but cannot. I think it would be doing the community a service to delete my registration, as I cannot do so myself. The truth is I have had a bad taste in my mouth about Jundo ever since I found my own spiritual practice done such a disservice here and after I was labelled mentally ill, condescended to, and booted for struggling with sincere spiritual questions. I am not sure what fuels my ongoing irritation with Jundo / Treeleaf because all that stuff is so far in the rearview. I think it just registered so strongly how what I got at Treeleaf was the opposite of what I needed spiritually at the time. I must feel that there is something 'wrong' about all this on some nonverbal level as when I think about it intellectually it seems so quaint and quixotic. As I've found far more in the Zen world that speaks to me than what doesn't. But it certainly doesn't help that wherever else I go on the Internet to connect with the online Zen world is, there Jundo is with his ten cents - Zen Forum International, Hardcore Zen, Wild Fox Zen, Sweeping Zen, often popping up to chastise or call out another Zen figure. I wonder if I was not constantly exposed to Jundo on blogs and forums if I would still retain this level of irritation. I was really excited to find Dosho Port's blog as he was expressing something I found inspiring, but there Jundo is in the comments with the usual. Always making the case for how Treeleaf and his style is exactly what is needed, especially when there is another scandal. I don't agree, and I am not alone in that. Anyway, I know it is a silly, quixotic thing. And I agree I have become an unintentional troll here. A foolish Quixote driving everyone into their defensive positions. People either want to wake up, or not; people either have questions, or don't. I can't make anyone else other than what they are just as they cannot make me other than what I am. Jundo really does push my buttons and probably always will. If I could de-Jundofy the blogs I read, I would. But I can't. Jundo can, however, de-Stephaniefy Treeleaf, which I think would be best for all. Otherwise I can't guarantee I won't be back here to vent the usual next time Jundo does or says something that bugs me. And as far as Chet goes - he does not need me to defend him and didn't ask me to post, but did talk to me about his frustration with what happened, and it bugged me, and I reacted. My report is exactly what Chet told me. It seems Chet has softened his take since it happened, and I agree it's probably for the best.

[Mp]

I can't make anyone else other than what they are just as they cannot make me other than what I am.

You said it right there Stephanie ... Accept things/people as they are ... if you can't, then understand that the issue of not accepting maybe within yourself and not outside yourself.

Be well.

Gassho
Michael