Spiritual Friendship

[RichardH]

That's very sad.
Kinda ironic outcome of a thread with this title and intention.
In which Chet was called a troll and told to shut up.
I wish him well.

For what it's worth, I meant the trolling comment. Trolling or trolling-like behaviour doesn't mean insincere. It can be very sincere, heartfelt. Now someone can think or say something badly about me if they like. That's ok.

Gassho, kojip

[galen]

"....it just seems unbecoming of a Buddhist, esp a priest in waiting (or wanting)."

It is legitimate I believe to raise whether or not a verbal/written attack has taken place, in the context of a discussion of right speech or skillful means - to claim that an individual has attacked another and then proceed to issue an attack or attribution regarding someone's intentions does not advance the discussion except to demonstrate an example of harmful speech. If one has a concern to seriously discuss with a colleague regarding that individual's behavior/intentions in the sangha, might it best be done via PM? Public snarkiness does not strike me as helpful....

Deep bows
Yugen

Snarkiness is fine, I will own `your perception here, Yugen. The PM also would have been good advice in telling him what he do, and how he should act. I do not remember you making that point earlier in his defense. But I have been out of line here, just felt like it was a personal attack on myself, and yes did not handle it well. Thank you for pointing this out.


Gassho

[galen]

Galen,

I feel confident that Chet would not describe any of my posts as an attack, but for a moment let's assume he would: To what posts are you referring?

Gassho,
Dosho

Dosho... I had addressed it at that time... moving on.


Gassho

[Yugen]

This is one of those episodes where a legitimate discussion devolves to the point where everyone gets their underwear bunched up.... At this point it is no longer about Chet, or about you, or about me. It is certainly no longer about us, and our connection to one another. What I wonder when I see all the time spent on the back and forth, all the navel gazing, all the attributions and counterclaims, the dust gets kicked up and no one can see any more - I wonder - what ratio of time is spent sitting/posting? IMHO being a Buddhist is about sitting, standing, walking, lying down, and understanding the great matter. Posting on the Forum I believe should be an adjunct, or support to one's practice. I struggle with these discursive spirals - while this is community it is not practice. Our teachers and colleagues are "good friends" who support one another in practice - and this in my mind is the purpose of the forums. I am off to the local zendo to sit, and I'll be sitting on G+ later tonight Eastern time. Shared silence can be far more eloquent and profound than noise.....I love you all and want to practice with you. See ya....

Deep bows
Yugen

[Yugen]

Galen

Deep bows - thank you

Yugen

[galen]

Galen

Deep bows - thank you

Yugen

Thank you Yugen.

It seems everything Is practice.


Gassho

[Mp]

This is one of those episodes where a legitimate discussion devolves to the point where everyone gets their underwear bunched up.... At this point it is no longer about Chet, or about you, or about me. It is certainly no longer about us, and our connection to one another. What I wonder when I see all the time spent on the back and forth, all the navel gazing, all the attributions and counterclaims, the dust gets kicked up and no one can see any more - I wonder - what ratio of time is spent sitting/posting? IMHO being a Buddhist is about sitting, standing, walking, lying down, and understanding the great matter. Posting on the Forum I believe should be an adjunct, or support to one's practice. I struggle with these discursive spirals - while this is community it is not practice. Our teachers and colleagues are "good friends" who support one another in practice - and this in my mind is the purpose of the forums. I am off to the local zendo to sit, and I'll be sitting on G+ later tonight Eastern time. Shared silence can be far more eloquent and profound than noise.....I love you all and want to practice with you. See ya....

Deep bows
Yugen

Thank you Yugen, nicely put.

Gassho
Michael

[Jundo]

Some go away for awhile and don't announce it, others announce it in the going away but coming back thread. In Chet's case Jundo announced it but I'm a little puzzled as to why his account was deactivated. The last time it was deactiviated he was kind of being obnoxious but in this case he was just being disagreeable. Jundo, I understand there may be personal issues with Chet that prevent you from disclosing anything further.

I did feel a little uncomfortable with the tone of some of the comments directed at Chet. In general life sometimes presents us with people and questions that we strongly disagree with but we have to answer in a respectful and considerate way no matter how much we disagree. IMHO

Hi Rich,

Chet knows that he is welcome back at any time, and I have told him so several times these last few days. He has not asked to come back.

Everyone, be gentle with each other. Be kind to each other and mutually maintain “gentle speech” in all communication, even when voices disagree on hot issues.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

I've been practising by myself for a a couple of years, although not in this tradition. I came here specifically to try and make spiritual friends. Not because I thought it would help my practice, particularly (although I think it will) but because I thought it would be nice to discuss dharma matters with other people who are on the same path, and to learn from those who have already scouted ahead.



Ian

Hi Ian,

Of course, we do require folks who participate in our Sangha to be sitting in the style of 'Just Sitting' Shikantaza at least once per day in the manner Practiced here. We ask everyone to do so (otherwise it is much like reading about 'swimming' without jumping in the water ... without being the waters flowing!). We also strongly encourage folks to join in the many other non-acitivities and Practices offered here. The Forum is intended merely as an aid to doing-non-doing so.

Gassho, J

[Risho]

Geez, I seem to be Nindo's contrarian lately, but I disagree with this post.

I'm hardly an example in my daily sitting practice, but with many other practices in my life, I have found myself to be stronger in these practices because I do them alone. If your practice can't survive without the support of other people, you are not curious enough. You're not fed up enough with your dissatisfaction and you're not curious enough about its causes. This isn't necessarily a problem though, as eventually, I think we all end up very disappointed in dukkha. Maybe this just isn't the lifetime that you're tired enough of dissatisfaction.

If zazen is a grinding, repressing practice of 'self-control', it will require considerable support and willpower....but that should also be an indication that something is wrong with your practice - not because your ego doesn't like it, but because the OTHER part of your ego that you think isn't your ego is at war with the part of yourself that hates it. Lately, I've been sitting more lightly by ignoring both voices.

Chet

I have been thinking about this question, and I too sometimes feel like I wish I could just practice by myself. But no matter where you go, you cannot avoid the Sangha. Treeleaf is our Sangha, but so is the town we live in, the community we live in, etc. We are never practicing alone. We are never practicing for ourselves. Awakening is not for ourselves alone; in fact, our vows are to help all sentient beings before we help ourself, even though most of the time I'm more concerned with myself.. I usually put myself first, my own stress, relaxation, avoiding dukkha at any cost. When studying during Jukai, specifically the part about taking refuge in the three treasures, we see Sangha from varying degrees.

When I think of Sangha, I have to think of the meaning of taking refuge in the Sangha. I don't take refuge to retreat and have others think for me and solve my problems. I think of refuge as a way of retreating from delusion, to see through delusion, or as a way to help me stay on the path to see through delusion, to support the bodhisattva vows. And we should absolutely take responsibility for our own practice. But I feel responsible for others' practice here as well. Of course I'm not responsible for everyone's practice but in a sense I am. I cannot do the practice for others, but I can have influence.

No doubt, when you post about your practice, you influence mine. If I see someone who is struggling with practice, I can empathize with that struggle and share or learn from that experience, and vice versa. There are countless seen and unseen influencers. The way the practice informs our lives can have direct impact on others... sorry absolutely does have impact on others. But you are right, if your practice is warped then something does need to be adjusted, but we have to start somewhere. Everyone's practice is warped to some degree, which is why we practice.

I think the Sangha can be a refuge with that as well. By talking about things, it's a way of openly acknowledging them. We are in this together, and that shared experience really helps me a lot. We are social animals, no doubt, and if we didn't share certain thoughts or a "moral grammar" we could not function as a society. So even if we are by ourselves, we aren't really alone.

In any case, it's not one or the other. Only "siths think in absolutes." hahhaah

Anyway you were talking about why you prefer to sit alone, and now I got off topic. lol

I am a fallible, human being. Sometimes I don't want to sit zazen, or do zazenkai or avoid swearing or sweets during ango; anything that is "practice". On one hand I could berate myself that my practice sucks. But I do that enough, and it's self-sabotage to not practice. But having a group helps me with that. It helps keep the intent alive. If I feel like giving up, seeing Dokan's or Dosho's practice or listening to one of Taigu's or Jundo's talks (for example) can help. With or without the Sangha, if we are on the path, we have to practice. Personally, I think the Sangha helps me.

I always appreciate your posts because they are very well articulated, and they make me think about my practice. I wouldn't necessarily get that if I didn't read what you posted in this Sangha, so even if you prefer practicing alone, I know my practice is richer with you being here. You've been sitting for years, and I can always see that experience in what you post.

Gassho,

Risho

[Dosho]

Thank you Risho...deep bows for your teaching and your practice.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Wordsmith]

Hi Ian,

Of course, we do require folks who participate in our Sangha to be sitting in the style of 'Just Sitting' Shikantaza at least once per day in the manner Practiced here. We ask everyone to do so (otherwise it is much like reading about 'swimming' without jumping in the water ... without being the waters flowing!). We also strongly encourage folks to join in the many other non-acitivities and Practices offered here. The Forum is intended merely as an aid to doing-non-doing so.

Gassho, J

That's fair enough. I think I may have underestimated the specificity of this sangha, and the emphasis on Google+, for which I apologize. I won't be using the latter at any point, so I think it fair to you all if I bow out now.

Gassho,

ian

[Thane]

Hi Nindo

Thanks for your post on spiritual friendship. I am new to Treeleaf and haven't managed to get involved too much due to a busy home/work life period the past few months. However, i am really enjoying the book club and sitting on google+ with some of the Sangha members. Although new to Treeleaf, i have been practicing Buddhism for 13 years. One thing i am am sure of is the benefit of spiritual friendship. I also agree that this can have a different quality to it. I can think of people i took the precepts with back in 2003 and the members of a local Buddhist group i used to attend regularly and how i can discuss things with them that i can with few others and how grateful i am for that. I can also think of how close i have felt to people that i hardly know, when i have attended silent retreats. A bond forged with people below the ego, very special.

So thanks for your post. I read it today, where i have been off work unwell (the flu, nothing serious, but it is man flu, the worst type!) and it reminded me, on a day when i did not feel it, to appreciate my life, including my spiritual fiends. The Sangha is true treasure.

Gassho Nindo

[Yugen]

Thane and Nindo,

Deep bows of gratitude to you both. There is nothing I can or need to add to what you have said so well.

Yugen

[Dojin]

have to say it made me think that i actually need to sit not only for myself.
but for the people i love and my family. so i can realize things for them! and just be a better person.


Gassho, Dojin.