Spiritual Friendship

[Shugen]

That's fair enough. I think I may have underestimated the specificity of this sangha, and the emphasis on Google+, for which I apologize. I won't be using the latter at any point, so I think it fair to you all if I bow out now.

Gassho,

ian

I don't think sitting on Google + is a requirement. The rest.....


Shugen

[Myozan Kodo]

Hello,
What is there to say here?

Sit Zazen then go to bed. Tomorrow worry about tomorrow. Good night.

I wish you well.

Gassho,
Myozan

[Kyonin]

Treeleaf is not a forum where you discuss a movie or rant about something on the news.

Treeleaf is a sangha, where we sit and practice together. We help, listen and understand.

This is home.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jundo]

I have been thinking about this question, and I too sometimes feel like I wish I could just practice by myself. But no matter where you go, you cannot avoid the Sangha. Treeleaf is our Sangha, but so is the town we live in, the community we live in, etc. We are never practicing alone. We are never practicing for ourselves. Awakening is not for ourselves alone; in fact, our vows are to help all sentient beings before we help ourself, even though most of the time I'm more concerned with myself.. I usually put myself first, my own stress, relaxation, avoiding dukkha at any cost. When studying during Jukai, specifically the part about taking refuge in the three treasures, we see Sangha from varying degrees.

Thank you, Risho, for a beautiful description of Sangha.

I was just reading this morning an old Sutta from the Vinaya describing the original formation of the Sangha 2500 years ago ... and all the bumps and frictions of personality in that community. The more things change, the more things stay the same.


At that time some Bhikkhus, as they had no upagghâyas (preceptor-mentors to show them proper decorum) and received no exhortation and instruction, went on their rounds for alms wearing improper under and upper garments (or, wearing their under and upper garments improperly), and in an improper attire. While people were eating, they held out [asking for more] their alms-bowls in which were still leavings of food over the hard food (which the people were eating), and held them out over soft food, and held them out over savoury food, and held them out over drinks. They asked for soup and boiled rice themselves, and ate it; in the dining halls they made a great and loud noise. ...Some Bhikkhus heard those people that were annoyed, murmured, and had become angry. Those Bhikkhus who were moderate, frugal, modest, conscientious, anxious for training, were annoyed, murmured, and became angry: 'How can the Bhikkhus go on their rounds for alms wearing improper under and upper garments, &c.? How can they make so great and loud a noise in the dining halls?'

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312.htm

Gassho, J

[galen]

Very good Jundo... thank you for this. It seems like this will be more comforting moving forward, well done.

Thank you Risho for another delightful post!

Jundo, if you would please, could I get Chet's email dropped into my box.



Gassho

[ZenHarmony]

I came here specifically to try and make spiritual friends.

Don't worry, Ian, it's not usually like this. There's usually little to no opposition to the status quo and when there is, they usually leave a lot like Chet did.

Gassho,

Lisa

[Saijun]

Don't worry, Ian, it's not usually like this. There's usually little to no opposition to the status quo and when there is, they usually leave a lot like Chet did.

Gassho,

Lisa

Hello Lisa,

Even though what you say is true, do you think that it's the best way? In my experience (I'm going to qualify with that), people who passionately, vehemently disagree with you are very important to practice. Chet, both on here and in our personal correspondence, was and is very important to my practice precisely because I disagree with him on many points, and he with me. Working with this disagreement in an environment of mutual respect and understanding has certainly deepened my practice because it forces me to examine my assumptions, beliefs, and understanding in a way that wouldn't happen if we always agreed.

Steve Jobs, a man who I have a solidly neutral opinion of, said this in an interview:

[ ... ]

And so we had a lot of great ideas when we started [the Mac]. But what I've always felt that a team of people doing something they really believe in is like is like when I was a young kid there was a widowed man that lived up the street. He was in his eighties. He was a little scary looking. And I got to know him a little bit. I think he may have paid me to mow his lawn or something.


And one day he said to me, "come on into my garage I want to show you something." And he pulled out this dusty old rock tumbler. It was a motor and a coffee can and a little band between them. And he said, "come on with me." We went out into the back and we got just some rocks. Some regular old ugly rocks. And we put them in the can with a little bit of liquid and little bit of grit powder, and we closed the can up and he turned this motor on and he said, "come back tomorrow."


And this can was making a racket as the stones went around.


And I came back the next day, and we opened the can. And we took out these amazingly beautiful polished rocks. The same common stones that had gone in, through rubbing against each other like this (clapping his hands), creating a little bit of friction, creating a little bit of noise, had come out these beautiful polished rocks.


That's always been in my mind my metaphor for a team working really hard on something they're passionate about. It's that through the team, through that group of incredibly talented people bumping up against each other, having arguments, having fights sometimes, making some noise, and working together they polish each other and they polish the ideas, and what comes out are these really beautiful stones. (Source)

I see Zen practice in the same way. There is disharmony, and there is harmony. But in an environment of mutual respect, even the disharmony is harmony. In my own life, the most important times are when I bump up against something disagreeable, something that I don't want to deal with, something that I didn't even know it was there. In the local Zen center, there is this notion that Soto doesn't work with koans--this is precisely why I disagree. When you come up to a wall that you didn't know was there, or when you're forced to face something you'd rather not, what is the appropriate response? Every day I work with this in a variety of ways. Chet was and is important precisely because he's rough, often disagreeable, and very frequently points out things that it turns out I was working very hard to not see. In this way, he is a spiritual friend.

Thank you all for your practice. May all beings realize the Buddha-Way together.

In Gassho,

Saijun

[ZenHarmony]

Hello Lisa,

Even though what you say is true, do you think that it's the best way? In my experience (I'm going to qualify with that), people who passionately, vehemently disagree with you are very important to practice... Working with this disagreement in an environment of mutual respect and understanding has certainly deepened my practice because it forces me to examine my assumptions, beliefs, and understanding in a way that wouldn't happen if we always agreed.

I agree completely, Saijun, my post was simply an observation, nothing more and no disrespect meant to anyone.

,

Lisa

[Saijun]

I agree completely, Saijun, my post was simply an observation, nothing more and no disrespect meant to anyone.

,

Lisa

Hello Lisa,

I didn't see or consider anything you wrote to be disrespectful at all. That part of my post was just to emphasize that I feel mutual respect is key in difficult situations like this one (and all other situations!) because, especially through a medium like this, feelings can get easily hurt and meanings can be missed or expressed in a less-than-completely clear and skillful way (see my previous post!). My apologies for not being clear enough to express my meaning the first time through.

In Gassho,

Saijun

[RichardH]

In a world where everyone agreed with me, I would remain an insufferable two-year-old my whole life . So gratitude for friction and disagreement is probably a good idea . But there is also something more than just disagreement that happens on discussion boards, where there is semi-anonymity. It is the acting-out of an "idee fixe". Within the online Buddhist scene this is frequently some version of... "I'm awakened and get it. Others, especially ordained teachers, don't get it". On a typical forum there is a continual stream of perseveration on this, riding the edge of the terms of service, and challenging any and all. It presents a moderating problem for Buddhists who want to be "compassionate" and "non-judgemental".

Gassho, kojip

[Heishu]

... and all the bumps and frictions of personality in that community. The more things change, the more things stay the same.
Gassho, J

That for me is what community is about, we will never agree with everything that someone says unless we totally agree to the exact same thought in our mind. Friction abounds within a community, no matter if it be an internet or a live an in person place. If I agree I say so, if not, I say so; and if I feel it is best, I keep my thoughts to myself. However, I respect the fact that within a community there will be at least the possibility that I will disagree with someone and then I must, as best as I can, wisely choose to comment or not comment about the matter.

I wish that the world would be a perfect place but it is not. Therefore, I try my best to get along as best as I can. I think for the most part that Chet was trying as best as he could to get along.

Gassho
Alan

[Nindo]

Hi Nindo

Thanks for your post on spiritual friendship. I am new to Treeleaf and haven't managed to get involved too much due to a busy home/work life period the past few months. However, i am really enjoying the book club and sitting on google+ with some of the Sangha members. Although new to Treeleaf, i have been practicing Buddhism for 13 years. One thing i am am sure of is the benefit of spiritual friendship. I also agree that this can have a different quality to it. I can think of people i took the precepts with back in 2003 and the members of a local Buddhist group i used to attend regularly and how i can discuss things with them that i can with few others and how grateful i am for that. I can also think of how close i have felt to people that i hardly know, when i have attended silent retreats. A bond forged with people below the ego, very special.

So thanks for your post. I read it today, where i have been off work unwell (the flu, nothing serious, but it is man flu, the worst type!) and it reminded me, on a day when i did not feel it, to appreciate my life, including my spiritual fiends. The Sangha is true treasure.

Gassho Nindo

Yes, I also remember the silent relationships with people who sat next to me during various retreats; often we had not even met before the start and sat a whole week in silence before finally being able to talk. And then it wasn't even important any more to talk, a hug was enough.

[galen]

In ZMBM, Suzuki seems to nail this thread in his always down-to-earth eloquence, in just under 4 pages and quoting Dogen 4 times, in the one of the chapters towards the end... Attachment, Nonattachment.

Flowers/weeds, love and hate, and the acceptance of taking the bitter with the sweet. With the loving flower like opening here, once a little weed appeared, some jumped right in with some weed killing toxins (or so they felt), like sharks swarming when a little blood hit the water.

In the following chapter... Calmness, his opening says: "For Zen students a weed is a treasure."


Gassho

[Nindo]

...some jumped right in with some weed killing toxins (or so they felt), like sharks swarming when a little blood hit the water.

If you want to continue judging people's intentions, be my guest. However, they have already pointed out what their intentions were, and that your judgement is off the mark.

Chet is not a weed in this sangha. He is a mature practitioner who makes his own well-considered choices about his practice and his life. I'm sure he appreciates your support, but you don't have to be hurtful to others in order to defend Chet.

[galen]

If you want to continue judging people's intentions, be my guest. However, they have already pointed out what their intentions were, and that your judgement is off the mark.

Chet is not a weed in this sangha. He is a mature practitioner who makes his own well-considered choices about his practice and his life. I'm sure he appreciates your support, but you don't have to be hurtful to others in order to defend Chet.

And if you want to judge my intentions, be my guest. My off the mark judgement as you portray here, is your perception and that does not make it necessarily right. Chet is someone I can relate to, and he was attacked, and you have the right to defend and rationalize as you please. He has had some of the same attackers before that he has had to step up and unduly defend himself. Oh, those poor others that I have been So harmful to, of course now victimized by me, please! In your seeming high mindedness here, what gives you the right to judge me !?

Why did you not post my comment on the fact that weeds, like myself and others, are a treasure, even though you attempt to make them out to be something bad. How can one know flowers, without so-called weeds?? And where was my gassho from you, are you angry ? Did you read Suzuki's chapter in full before your judgemental affront?


Gassho