Spiritual Friendship

[RichardH]

Thank you everyone,
I would like to add a tiny bit to the two lights that Chet and Mongen put on different edges of the very same thing. While I feel that being part of treeleaf is an important part of my practice I still feel Chet has a vlid point about practicing alone can (!) be as good. I stumble over the part " ...whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense" of Mongen; if its literally sitting along and being away from the world I agree (lonely cave model), but if you sit alone and engage in the world, then imho this can be very much the Mahayana path.
_()_
Myoku

It is one thing to say practicing alone is my thing. it is another to say another's sincere expression of appreciation of Community means they don't get it, and to do so from a pose of Enlightenment. That is a plague of internet Zen. spinning "nothing to do" into an Enlightened pose, while manifestly, acting out of a tangled spaghetti ball of self centered thinking. Sorry if this is blunt. Trolling is trolling... BTW trolls usually come in twos.

Gassho, kojip.

The trolling comment was obviously not referring to you, Myoku.

[Dosho]

Hi all,

The Three Treasures are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha for a reason...and not Buddha, Dharma, Chet; Buddha, Dharma, Dosho; or Buddha, Dharma, Buddha for that matter.

To spend countless moments trying to make it more complex than that is foolish and unhelpful in my opinion.

Gassho,
Dosho

[disastermouse]

It is one thing to say practicing alone is my thing. it is another to say another's sincere expression of appreciation of Community means they don't get it, and to do so from a pose of Enlightenment. That is a plague of internet Zen. spinning "nothing to do" into an Enlightened pose, while manifestly, acting out of a tangled spaghetti ball of self centered thinking. Sorry if this is blunt. Trolling is trolling... BTW trolls usually come in twos.

Gassho, kojip.

The trolling comment was obviously not referring to you, Myoku.

Where am I saying that a sincere appreciation of community means that? I'm saying that a sincere expression of appreciation for community is not necessarily right simply because its an expression of appreciation for community.

I'm not taking the stand that any of these things are wrong in and of themselves. But neither are they necessarily beneficial simply by their existing.

It seems some of you think that because I'm suspending the belief that spiritual community is inherently important that I'm picking up the opposing belief.

I'm not doing that either. I was only using those examples of the Buddha's singular path as examples of how the original belief is not necessarily true.

There's the plague of Internet individualistic Zen. There's also the plague of group-think and community influenced delusion. You needn't pick up either of these things. It's okay to be uncertain. It might even be beneficial to be uncertain.

So, in putting down one conviction, I don't want to pick up the opposite conviction. My aim is fewer certainties - fewer convictions.

That's not trolling, that's an honest expression that I don't really know anything and I don't want to pretend that either opinion is entirely accurate.

And I'm not saying you're wrong because I steadfastly refuse to pick up the mantle of being right. I'm just pointing out that this idea could be wrong.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Hi all,

The Three Treasures are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha for a reason...and not Buddha, Dharma, Chet; Buddha, Dharma, Dosho; or Buddha, Dharma, Buddha for that matter.

To spend countless moments trying to make it more complex than that is foolish and unhelpful in my opinion.

Gassho,
Dosho

Who cares? Do we honor them because they are the three treasures of Buddhism or are they truly treasures and hence we honor them regardless of how they are presented?

Put another way, if we were drawn to say, political conservatism - would we honor the principles of conservatism because they reflected reality or because some aspect of them seemed correct at some point, leading us to adopt the label 'conservative ' and no longer examining their veracity?

Would we acknowledge the negative aspects of these principles when they were clearly evident or would we pretend they didn't exist in service of our preselected ideology?

Chet

[Dosho]

Chet,

Should we accept things without questioning them? Of course not. But if they ring true to us, I don't think it necessary to dissect them to the furthest degree. I don't swallow whole what I learn. I take the time to digest the teachings. I talk about them with others so as not to get caught up in my own BS. But so early along this path, to be continually analyzing, questioning, and posting about every little bit of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha? That's not following the path.

If you don't like the path that has been laid before you, then go find another one. But if you stay, and I say this with all due respect and sincerity: Sit the (bleep) down and shut the (bleep) up! Sorry for the harsh language, but I am trying to speak loud enough and with sufficient salt so that you might just hear me.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Nindo]

The point isn't that going alone is best, the point is that simply being part of a group does not necessarily guarantee anything...

The point was gratitude, simple as that. Notice it says SOME people at the start, not EVERYBODY out of EVERY group you will ever be in. There may be some key people in your practice who first point you to it, who keep encouraging you, who you end up feeling some responsibility for, and, above all, gratitude.

There are a few Dharma mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters in my life. I don't take them for granted. Sincere practice is an act of gratitude towards them. That's all the initial post was pointing at.

[Hans]

Hello Myoku,

my point was simply that the way of the glorious Mahayana is one of engaged compassion. Which is why self-focussed-escapist practise is absolutely cool, it's just not Mahayana practise Jumping to the ultimate level again we can say that all these names mean nothing at all...but then again there might be a reason why some people feel drawn towards certain kinds of practise and others feel drawn to others. I hope we all find a practise or non-practise that suits us best.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Daitetsu]

Hi Chet,

Who cares? Do we honor them because they are the three treasures of Buddhism or are they truly treasures and hence we honor them regardless of how they are presented?

This is something everyone must find out for themselves.

You've raised some valid points in this thread, but I think this is an individual thing.
I am pretty sure one can practice Zen Buddhism on ones own, w/out a Sangha. But not everyone. (In fact probably not the majority.)

Some don't need a Sangha at all.
Some absolutely need it.
Some don't necessarily need a Sangha, but prefer to have one, because they find it helpful and like to be in company.
This is an oversimplification, but I think you know what I want to say.

To each their own.

Gassho,

Timo

[Amelia]

I take refuge in the Sangha. Perhaps we are born alone and we die alone, but we can practice this life together.

[Mp]

I take refuge in the Sangha. Perhaps we are born alone and we die alone, but we can practice this life together.

Lovely!

Gassho
Michael

[Heishu]

Spiritual Friendship!!!

Thank you Nindo and everyone at Treeleaf.


Gassho
Alan

ps. I know that this video may be percieved as lame but the OP was about our spiritual friends. I may be able to walk my path alone but it is nice to get a little help from my friends.

[Mp]

Spiritual Friendship!!!

Thank you Nindo and everyone at Treeleaf.


Gassho
Alan

ps. I know that this video may be percieved as lame but the OP was about our spiritual friends. I may be able to walk my path alone but it is nice to get a little help from my friends.

Thanks Alan ... Love Joe Cocker. Brings back some good memories.

Gassho
Michael

[Amelia]

That's one of my favorite songs.

[Kyotai]

I do have to agree with the quote. I certainly WOULD have continued my meditation practice if someone had not told me about TreeLeaf. But haven met, sat and spoke to many trealeafers, I have definetely felt that to be true.

[disastermouse]

Dosho,

Examining is BEST at the beginning of something, but my practice is not so new. I've been a practicing Buddhist for 19 years.

And I AM sitting - nearly daily (sometimes in between 12 hour shifts I just fall asleep before I can sit). But I'm questioning everything, including the idea that daily practice is inherently a good thing and why it's a good thing. I'm doing it, but I'm not doing it because I feel I must.

I'm trying to examine just how much of my identity is involved in holding too tightly to beliefs about this practice.

And to Nindo: I'm very sorry I hijacked the thread - it just brought up some stuff for me.

Chet