Spiritual Friendship

[disastermouse]

Hans,

I'm starting to think the Buddha was wrong on this one.

Are all spiritual communities and friends equal? Did Siddhartha NOT leave quite a few spiritual friends - friends that denounced him at the time?

He went off alone. There was no sangha with him under the bodhi tree, if I recall correctly. Repeatedly Siddhartha left the comfort of friends and community. Had he not done that, would we know of him today?

Why do so few in these communities wake up?

Chet

[RichardH]

I'm not sure what this means. If I drop the story that I haven't been sitting enough, there's really no problem.

I think you missed the point of my post.

Chet

I should not have responded, Chet. Not for lack of understanding, but because I should know better than to engage it. So signing off.

[Rich]

Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

Bows to all sanghas.

[Heishu]

Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

Bows to all sanghas.

That sums up how I feel. I can't even fix breakfast by myself. I depend on those that prepared my flakes, processed the sugar, milked the cows and shipped it all to the store. Just as in real life we sometimes need some help and or a friend, it is also true in our practice.

Gassho
Alan

[disastermouse]

Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

Bows to all sanghas.

But he didn't go it alone for most of that. He was in community after community and did not find liberation. Is it in the nature of groups to reinforce grasping? Why do so few people wake up? You would think sanghas would be overflowing with people who, although still displaying personalities, are less densely trapped by them. Instead, sometimes you see people more densely trapped in more pleasant personas...better than before, but no less hopelessly bound in an identity.

Or you see sex scandals, power trips, back-biting, and all sorts of stuff pretending to be spiritual and sacred when it's just new clothes on old delusions. How is that especially helpful? People may call you on your bullshit, but they lay their bullshit all over you. The higher up the hierarchy, the denser and harder to penetrate are the delusions.

Either way, you're on your own - even if you're in a group. Your spiritual friends may be just pulling you into their trips. In the end, their lights cannot guide you.

Chet

[Neika]

Thank you Nindo.

[Rich]

But he didn't go it alone for most of that. He was in community after community and did not find liberation. Is it in the nature of groups to reinforce grasping? Why do so few people wake up? You would think sanghas would be overflowing with people who, although still displaying personalities, are less densely trapped by them. Instead, sometimes you see people more densely trapped in more pleasant personas...better than before, but no less hopelessly bound in an identity.

Or you see sex scandals, power trips, back-biting, and all sorts of stuff pretending to be spiritual and sacred when it's just new clothes on old delusions. How is that especially helpful? People may call you on your bullshit, but they lay their bullshit all over you. The higher up the hierarchy, the denser and harder to penetrate are the delusions.

Either way, you're on your own - even if you're in a group. Your spiritual friends may be just pulling you into their trips. In the end, their lights cannot guide you.

Chet

AS an individual I agree that you are on your own and responsible for how and when you practice. And if you need to go off on your own for awhile that's OK. But the others in your group/sangha/community need you and you need them for support, guidance and reflection. We can't always see ourselves, or we see something and interpret it in a totally wrong way. So practicing or just being with others is a mutually beneficial process.

[Kyonin]

Thank you, Nindo.

Really beautiful.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Hans]

Hello Chet,

to me personally there is a great conceptual difference between realising awakening in the sense of "just" having Kensho style openings that might or might not change your life forever, and realising awakening as a process of dynamic actions.
Loads of people have had Kensho experiences (even verified ones...whatever that's supposed to mean), but they still stink out of their asses like everyone else.

The Mahayana sutras are repeatedly mentioning awakened Pratyeka guys/girls who went it all alone.....and they don't fail to mention the fact that the path of the Mahayana vehicle is more broad and deep in its realisation and more inclusive than the path of the Pratyekas.
I guess nobody here thinks that merely being/practising around other people necessarily has a great and supportive effect. But it CAN be the whole of the way, whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense.

Just my two Yen. Peace and gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[disastermouse]

Hello Chet,

to me personally there is a great conceptual difference between realising awakening in the sense of "just" having Kensho style openings that might or might not change your life forever, and realising awakening as a process of dynamic actions.
Loads of people have had Kensho experiences (even verified ones...whatever that's supposed to mean), but they still stink out of their asses like everyone else.

The Mahayana sutras are repeatedly mentioning awakened Pratyeka guys/girls who went it all alone.....and they don't fail to mention the fact that the path of the Mahayana vehicle is more broad and deep in its realisation and more inclusive than the path of the Pratyekas.
I guess nobody here thinks that merely being/practising around other people necessarily has a great and supportive effect. But it CAN be the whole of the way, whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense.

Just my two Yen. Peace and gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

I'm not saying that groups are bad - just that they don't seem to add OR detract from the path. In the end, it's on you. Groups can just as easily be a place to hide as can a mountain cave.

And I'm not talking about kensho or a special mental state. Also, who cares if it's Mahayana or not? If your Mahayana group isn't waking you up, who cares? I'm not talking about kensho, I'm just talking about the natural state.

If it doesn't wake you up or wake you up again, throw it out. If you're unwilling to do that, that's the exact measure of what's keeping you from the natural state. It's not about gaining a whole bunch of precious ideas.

IMHO.

Chet

[Hans]

Hello Chet,

as often happens with such discussions, relative and ultimate levels are kinda being pitted against one another. I do agree that people shouldn't care about names and definition like Pratyeka, Hinayana etc. This was just to illustrate some traditional views. However as long as people, especially beginners, cannot but look for a path, it is helpful to know what one is talking about.

Arguably (depending one whom you'd ask) what you call the natural state is just the same thing that continous practise along an authentic path/non-path would manifest over time (or instantly).

I still feel confused about what it really is you call "waking up".

Actually Chet, if you are completely convinced that your preference for "doing it alone" is the real way, then I'd suggest you manifest this insight to a point where you will lead loads of individuals to liberation. Please tell me how that works once you have succeeded...

Since we're throwing relative and ultimate views around like candy on a Halloween night, I have just one last question.

When you say that "In the end, it's on you." please show me that you that exists seperately from all other sentient beings.

YOU can never practise alone, sitting in a mountain cave next to a desert....there is no such thing as a lone practitioner. Just people who can't stand a certain noise level.

I have nothing further to discuss here...heaps and heaps of words...


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[disastermouse]

Hello Chet,

as often happens with such discussions, relative and ultimate levels are kinda being pitted against one another. I do agree that people shouldn't care about names and definition like Pratyeka, Hinayana etc. This was just to illustrate some traditional views. However as long as people, especially beginners, cannot but look for a path, it is helpful to know what one is talking about.

These terms should point to something immediately accessible. If you have to explain them, they are exactly not immediately accessible.

Arguably (depending one whom you'd ask) what you call the natural state is just the same thing that continous practise along an authentic path/non-path would manifest over time (or instantly).

In what space do things manifest? THAT is the natural state. How could it manifest?

I still feel confused about what it really is you call "waking up".

Actually Chet, if you are completely convinced that your preference for "doing it alone" is the real way, then I'd suggest you manifest this insight to a point where you will lead loads of individuals to liberation. Please tell me how that works once you have succeeded...

I don't think you heard what I meant to say. A group amplifies a tendency or direction. The point isn't that going alone is best, the point is that simply being part of a group does not necessarily guarantee anything - even a Buddhist one. Buddhism serves many functions, many of which are cultural, some of which build better identities for people. But let's not confuse Buddhism with a path primarily concerned with ego development. Throwing even Buddhism out, let's not confuse spiritual practice with attainment or self-identity practices. You can strengthen ego delusion by yourself, but you can even more powerfully develop it in a group. Being German, I can't imagine how you are not acutely aware of this.

Since we're throwing relative and ultimate views around like candy on a Halloween night, I have just one last question.

When you say that "In the end, it's on you." please show me that you that exists seperately from all other sentient beings.

You know I can't do that; there is no you that exists separately from all other beings. Nor is there a you that exists with all other beings - connected or disconnected. It is by turns a useful or obfuscating concept - this 'I' which must be referenced that ultimately points to nothing.

YOU can never practise alone, sitting in a mountain cave next to a desert....there is no such thing as a lone practitioner. Just people who can't stand a certain noise level.

I have nothing further to discuss here...heaps and heaps of words...


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

The point is not whether you can or can't practice alone or with others. The point is whether you believe either of these concepts points to something accurate. Ultimately, neither does.

And what's wrong with words? Wordless practice can just as easily be deluded and grasping. Words are simply more honestly dishonest. They betray their contradictions with reality quite readily. Silence can also be a hiding place.

Chet

[RichardH]

Chet. Are you aware of how this is playing out? ....this thread? Look out how the thread started, then look at what is playing out. What do you want?

[Myoku]

Thank you everyone,
I would like to add a tiny bit to the two lights that Chet and Mongen put on different edges of the very same thing. While I feel that being part of treeleaf is an important part of my practice I still feel Chet has a vlid point about practicing alone can (!) be as good. I stumble over the part " ...whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense" of Mongen; if its literally sitting along and being away from the world I agree (lonely cave model), but if you sit alone and engage in the world, then imho this can be very much the Mahayana path.
_()_
Myoku

[disastermouse]

Chet. Are you aware of how this is playing out? ....this thread? Look out how the thread started, then look at what is playing out. What do you want?

I want an honest conversation and I want to examine everything that I thought was true.

I haven't insulted anyone, nor is that the intent. I'm just not so sure that the premises upon which this thread is based are anything more than a nice story that we tell ourselves.

Chet