Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Maybe some people have found a way to use two sources of strength and wisdom to make it up the hill.

Sure. But does this suppose then that neither of them alone is enough? Neither perfect?

From Sawaki Roshi:

Everyone believes they have to add something to their zazen. You shouldn't add anything. It's good as it is. You don't need to fool around with it.

If there is even a bit of individuality left over, it isn't pure, unadulterated zazen. We've got to practice pure, unadulterated zazen, without mixing it with gymnastics or satori or anything. When we bring in our personal ideas - even only a little bit - it is no longer the buddha-dharma.

Perhaps I've misunderstood this. If you can drop Christ and God and soul and Buddha Nature and all desire for experiencing God or Vishnu or Christ-Mind or reconnecting with the spirit of your dead dog, then it is unadulterated zazen. But if you're seeking any of these things, you're adding to it. If you're hoping for an answer or a mystical experience, then it isn't buddha-dharma. But like I said. I may have misunderstood this. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if I had.

I would say that some things matter and cannot mix well with Zazen. For example, being filled with anger, jealousy, excess desires and attachments, thoughts of "us vs. them" each would interfere with tasting the plain beauty of Zazen.**

But other things do not matter. For example, whether one is wearing a red shirt or a blue shirt during Zazen, is Japanese or American or French, is riding a bicycle or a unicycle up and down mountains.

If Christianity or Judaism (or Buddhism) is practiced too much with an "us vs. them" attitude, then, yes, perhaps these paths cannot go together. But if each is practiced while dropping such a dividing attitude, then they both fit quite nicely on the cushion (for the cushion holds all things quite roomily). We sit to "find reality always present" by quieting the runaway mind, by dropping thoughts of division, by radically "finding by giving up the search somewhere distant". If someone can find something thereby which is our "Original Face" ... and if they feel that what is thus found is also perhaps a "face of God" ... good.

As Suzuki Roshi said ...

Everyone believes they have to add something to their zazen. You shouldn't add anything. It's good as it is. ... When we bring in our personal ideas - even only a little bit - it is no longer the buddha-dharma.

Perhaps when you bring your personal idea that it is impossible to practice while being a Christian, and perhaps when you try to add to Zazen your feeling that one cannot practice "real Zazen" if also having another faith, then it is YOU who is adding his personal DIVIDING ideas to Zazen. That act is what adulterates Zazen by the very dividing.

On the other hand, if one sits Zazen without adding such personal, divisive thoughts ... sitting Zazen whether as a Christian, a Jew, an Agnostic or Atheist, in a red shirt or a blue, on a bike or a unicycle ... then one's Zazen is pure, unadulterated.

Gassho, J

* * (Heck, one can even sit Zazen as a robber or hired killer ... but the poison of such a mind turns the experience black).

[chessie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, as it speaks to my experience in many ways. The thread that Taigu had recently regarding the alms bowl reminded me of an email I wrote quite a while ago. This was written to a close friend who is a fundamentalist Baptist, in an attempt to show how Christianity and Buddhism are integrated to a degree for me--please forgive the length, as I couldn't figure out what to edit out. I saved this on my pc under the title "Bowls":


1. Been thinking about bowls a lot lately, since they keep coming up in Buddhist studies:
a. alms bowl as on of the few (as in less than 5) possessions of a monk/nun
b. the story I told you earlier where the 'punch line' is the master telling the disciple that if he has eaten his rice, then he needs to wash his bowl.
c. the shape of the meditation bells, which are basically an iron bowl
d. and, last night, I noticed (again, for the first time?) that I have two pottery bowls, one round and one flat, with the same glaze patter & color--way cool!

well, bowls are really of no use, unless they are empty, right? You can't put something in a full bowl!

2. Been reading the Heart Sutra, which is a classic, and thought to be a prime condensation of ideas. Not to get into the whole thing (although it is realllllly short)
a. First lines that appealed to me say, basically, that when the mind has no hindrances, there is no fear

but, then line that kept going round my head because I had trouble making sense of it was this:

b. Form is no different from emptiness, Emptiness is no different from form
That which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness is form

3. I read a talk yesterday where the guy said that Buddhist practice does not require that anyone leave their roots, traditions, core faith, etc. In fact, if someone leaves the Christian faith to practice, he will tell them to go back, and practice Christianity more fully with what they have learned (kind of...)

4. I listened to part of a talk (Thanks JUNDO!!!) (headphones attached to laptop) that was 'zen for newbies'. He first talked about our natural tendency to always judge another person, or a situation, or think 'if only' or 'when this occurs' I will be happy, or looking forward to or dreading the future, or missing the past, etc etc. He said that these thoughts (and demonstrated) are like continually hitting oneself with a hammer. In zen practice, you learn to put the hammer down. Stop the thoughts. Learn to, even for a moment, dwell in actual, internal silence (okay, my words, not his, but that's the idea anyhow).

4. Reading about Christian contemplative prayer and how Catholics use Zen

Okay, after all that, here's the good part.

5. One book that I've known about for years, but always considered too hard, or too dense, or too impenetrable, is the Ascent of Mount Carmel by St. John of the Cross. For some reason, this morning I thought, well, maybe I'm ready to try it now. I'm reading the Introduction, and come across this paragraph (the paragraph before this talks about going through the dark night of the soul before coming out into the sunrise of Divine light, or some such thing):

Through this obscurity the thread which guides the soul is that of ‘emptiness’ or ‘negation.’ Only by voiding ourselves of all that is not God can we attain to the possession of God, for two contraries cannot co-exist in one individual, and creature-love is darkness, while God is light, so that from any human heart one of the two cannot fail to drive out the other.5959Ascent, Bk. III, Chap. ii.


Emptiness IS form--the form of Divinity! Because, only where we are empty, can there be room for 'indwelling'.

This was written a long while back, and I'm not sure I'm exactly in the same place today, but it was a wonderful 'ah ha' moment for me.

Gassho, Ann

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I was just listening to a really good mp3 of RM Jiyu-Kennett, and she talks about this very thing. Not about priests per se, but Christianity and Buddhism. Worth a listen.

http://www.obcon.org/Dhrmatlk/RM%20Jiyu%20Intro%20to%20Zen%20Training.mp3

[Amelia]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

well, bowls are really of no use, unless they are empty, right? You can't put something in a full bowl!

I've never thought of it this way before.

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I was just listening to a really good mp3 of RM Jiyu-Kennett, and she talks about this very thing. Not about priests per se, but Christianity and Buddhism. Worth a listen.

Thanks for this, it was a wonderful talk. Just as an aside, when I was living in a monastery in Northern California I had some rather extensive correspondance with Kennett Roshi, even participated in a correspondance course she offered at that time and spent some time at the monastery on Mount Shasta. Part of the reason I am comfortable in doing what it is I am doing today is because of those previous particular contacts.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Amelia]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I was just listening to a really good mp3 of RM Jiyu-Kennett, and she talks about this very thing.
http://www.obcon.org/Dhrmatlk/RM%20J...20Training.mp3

This is great, though I admit I am only through a third of it. Really eloquent explanation of the grace of accepting not knowing.

[Amelia]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

...when I was living in a monastery in Northern California I had some rather extensive correspondance with Kennett Roshi, even participated in a correspondance course she offered at that time and spent some time at the monastery on Mount Shasta...

There are people who believe that Mount Shasta is a kind of "vortex for enlightenment." I have had some ah-ha times there myself. Very beautiful place.

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I was just listening to a really good mp3 of RM Jiyu-Kennett, and she talks about this very thing. Not about priests per se, but Christianity and Buddhism. Worth a listen.
http://www.obcon.org/Dhrmatlk/RM%20J...20Training.mp3

Thank you, Doogie, for providing this talk.

Jiyu Kennett Roshi and her Lineage, the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives (Throssel Hole Buddhist Abbey in the U.K. and Shasta Abbey in the U.S) might be said to present a particular interpretation or flavor on these questions. Perhaps more than most Zen Lineages in the West, her teachings do present a rather "Theistic" feel to the nature of "Buddha Nature", "Buddha" and the like. Although she would say that "Ultimate Reality" is quite beyond definition and description, she did (and many of the presentations from her Lineage do) present these as finding "The Eternal", "That" "Thou" "The Still, Small Voice Within" or a feeling of Godhead and Diety, that we are to uncover and be worshipful and devotional toward (often found, for example, in passages of the translation of Shobogenzo produced by the OBC, which can often be quite "King James" in tone). As she says in the talk, her feeliing is that Yahweh, Allah, Buddha and such are all words for the same That. She was also a seer of mystic visions, not unlike many others of the past (Keizan is said to have been such a seer of visions), and that feeling does come through in many of her teachings. In many ways, she created rituals and customs that very much incorporate the feeling of the Anglican Church, such as the lovely Buddhist chants which are written as Gregorian or "Plain" chants ...

viewtopic.php?p=40544#p40544

I feel that this is all FINE AND BEAUTIFUL. Yet, as well, it may not be the only way to encounter or present the Zen Buddhist teachings. Many in the west (me among them) may feel that uniting with and fully allowing this life-world-all time and space-ultimate reality, and leaving the ultimate to flow along as the ultimate, might mean that one need not necessarily put things that way, and that everyone from "theists" to so-called "secular humanists", atheists and agnostics, can be held within this "reality" which rejects none of that ... for what can be left out of what is? Perhaps Kennett Roshi's way is actually closer to the devotional, church-like, worshipful flavor of Buddhism that one might encounter at most Buddhist temples in Asia.

LOVELY, and the wonderful thing about the "Zen Buddhist Tent" ... just as wide and all encompassing as the whole universe, plus all of Reality itself ... is that it is spacious enough to hold all, leaving nothing out. There are as many ways to hear the Sound as there are ears to hear it. Many paths up and down the mountain (and, ultimately what mountain?. I practice such 'non-mountain' hiking.)

I encountered a passage by Thich Nhat Hanh yesterday in which he spoke of not caring for the definition of "Prajna" as "Wisdom", because to his ears, "Wisdom" seems as such a fixed and solid thing. He prefers "Understanding", which has the feel of "flowing" and penetrating which is fluid, flexible to all conditions. An image I like for that is the sailor single handedly sailing the vast sea who flows and allows for the ever changing conditions of wind and tide, ably sailing whatever comes, allowing it all and ever practicing with each league of the trip. The sailor knows that sea and sail and wind and boat and sailor are each what they are, and wholly one.

One can be that sailor, whether or not knowing the "beginning and end" of the sea, every inch of coastline, the shape of each grain of sand upon all its beaches, the bottom of its depth or the height of the sky above ... just sailing the sea right here, now, where the hull meets the water and the salty breeze is felt and tasted. The sea is just revealed right to the bottom, and all time and space held within every tiny drop.

One can be that sailor, whether one tastes the salt of the sea as "God", "H2O" "Water" "The Eternal" "Waves and Sea" "Poseidon" "Sand and Shore" "Buddha" "Liquid and Solid" "A Mirage" "A Dream" "Atoms" or just the flowing Sea.

Something like that.

Gassho, Jundo

[Amelia]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

...the wonderful thing about the "Zen Buddhist Tent"... is that it is spacious enough to hold all, leaving nothing out.

Like that bowl that keeps coming up...

[frjames]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Hi.

I tried a couple of times to give some point by point response to the question that doogie asked. But I just ended deleting them. I don't think its about the notion that if one practices Christianity, one cannot practice Buddhism, particularly in the this case, Zazen. I don't think it should be that way.

Doogie, I appreciate your question but if I engage with it then I will just be locked into an intellectual debate and not get down to the fact that Zazen is universal. Just as the Love of God, as taught by the Christ, is not a monopoly of any Christian church. Oh, of course, we can argue endlessly about the teachings of the institutional Church but even Buddhism has its institutional challenges.

Matsouka roshi was my first zen teacher. When I entered his zen temple 20 years ago, I admitted to him that I'm a Catholic priest. He immediately said, almost interrupting me, "No contradiction between Catholic and Buddhism." I believed him and have lived his words ever since.

Karen Armstrong, in her book, A Case For God, contends that up until the modern era (about the 1400's) people were more concern about practice than doctrine. Thus for the Christian, for example, the essence of Christianity was about practicing compassion and helping one's neighbor as the Christ taught. It was also about practicing "prayer"--particularly, liturgical prayer, where the whole body and mind is absolved in the practice. One "lost" oneself in prayer. For Armstrong, and I agree with her, belief and faith is not about intellectual assent but about "to give one's heart".

Armstrong also reintroduces the 5th century notion of apophasis, that the more we talk about God, the more we know nothing. "[A]pophasis, the breakdown of speech, which cracks and disintegrates before the absolute unknowability of what we call God.” When it comes to theology, "we really can't know what we are talking about." God or the concept of God can only be known through dedicated practice.

And that brings me back to Matsouka-roshi and his "No contradiction." After he said those words to me, he pointed to the cushion: "Sit!" To me its not about riding a bike or baking a pie or riding a horse. Its not even about popes or original sin or dogmas and doctrines. Its about sitting. At least when I sit, there is "no contradiction."

I apologize if this doesn't contribute much to the discussion or to the question.

Gassho,

James.

[frjames]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Jundo said:

but I would not mix and match ketchup and bananas!

Jundo said:

A truly "non-dualistic" realization might feel something like "neither worshiping God nor not worshiping God blocks realization, for realization cannot be blocked ... as realization holds and easily allows for all". In fact, even asserting "worshiping God blocks realization" or "worshiping God does not block realization" will not block realization in the least when realization is correctly perceived.

There's the Teacher teaching. Thanks for this Jundo.

Deep bows,

James.

Attached files

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I apologize if this doesn't contribute much to the discussion or to the question.

Gassho,

James.

I feel that it answered about all that can be answered. Thank you, Padre.

Gassho, J

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I see how there may be no contradiction between Soto Zen and Christianity (or any other religion). Zen appears to be infinitely plastic.

After reading the pdf that Jundo linked to called The New Buddhism, I am left with questions. The author discussed many of the issues that I've been wrestling with, and although Jundo may not agree with all the author's points, I believe many of the points are valid, and the last point deals directly with this discussion. It is the notion of enlightenment as faith.

It got me thinking about the story of Abraham, and whether or not a Buddhist would have handled the situation differently. Would a Buddhist, when ordered by his God to kill his son, have taken it on blind faith that he should do so, or would he have declined the offer with a bow.

I believe the Buddha certainly would have taken issue with any God demanding such an act of faith. In fact, isn't that the whole point of his original message? To wake up from all such delusions and reach that place where the precepts manifest themselves? To act morally because it is your true nature to do so, instead of acting against your nature as an act of faith in an external force?

[Ankai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Doogie, You're right.
You could pick apart the stories of any religion and base an opinion on them. On a personal note, you just blew off the faiths of millions of people as "delusion," and while I understand your point, there is a more delicate way you could express your own beliefs and ideas about those of others. The simple truth is that our Zen trancends those ideas and beliefs, and rather than worry about "delusions" held by others we ought to remember the delusionary nature of our OWN beliefs rather than those expressed by other people. If you're not a believer, sit with it. If you are a believer, sit also. But Ihave to be honest, it's coming across like your questions are more a matter of stating disagreement with other faiths and what other people think or believe than they are questions about anything.

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Doogie, You're right.
You could pick apart the stories of any religion and base an opinion on them. On a personal note, you just blew off the faiths of millions of people as "delusion," and while I understand your point, there is a more delicate way you could express your own beliefs and ideas about those of others. The simple truth is that our Zen trancends those ideas and beliefs, and rather than worry about "delusions" held by others we ought to remember the delusionary nature of our OWN beliefs rather than those expressed by other people. If you're not a believer, sit with it. If you are a believer, sit also. But Ihave to be honest, it's coming across like your questions are more a matter of stating disagreement with other faiths and what other people think or believe than they are questions about anything.

If you can state that my OWN beliefs are delusions, then I doubt I'm the only one. That's the point, isn't it? That all beliefs are delusions.

Zen doesn't mean anti-intellectual. The answer to every question can't be "just sit." Buddha didn't "just sit." He thought about this stuff. Being surrounded by the hindu faith, he thought often about gods. He had opinions on them.

I'd like to think that "just sitting" would solve a complex dilemma of faith, but perhaps not. If you believe in a God, and that God came down from on high and told you to sacrifice your child, clearly that would contradict everything we know about what it is to be Buddhist. One who is truly enlightened would never do such a thing. Perhaps that's not politically correct, but can't Buddhists agree on that simple point?

Religions are useless if they don't offer moral guidance, and I think it's just fine to point out moral inconsistencies on both sides. That doesn't disparage either religions, but creates a dialogue between them. Zen has been used for purposes of war, which contradicts the spirit of the Buddha's teachings. It's okay to talk about that too.