Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Someone asked me today why I seem to say opposite things on issues such as this. They were a bit confused about what I mean about "certain" flavors of Christianity or Judaism (or Atheism too) being "compatible with our Practice ... while, in my view, many or most flavors of Christianity or Judaism (or Atheism too) really are not.

Likewise, they have read me be critical of much of what I call "magico-supersticio hocus-pocus bunkum" in Buddhism, and much myth and fairy tale that it has picked up over the millenia ... yet I also say that esoteric practices (in some flavors) can be harmonious with "our Practice" under certain conditions. Likewise with regard to chanting to Amida, prayer and the like.

So, what gives?

It is really very simple. The key, by my eyes, is radical, non-attaining and goallessness of Shikantaza ... moving forward, yet ever still ... polishing the tile, yet not one thing to change. Of course, we sit seated Shikantaza Zazen each day, but many activities and beliefs in daily life can be "Shikantaza" too. For example, if one washes the dishes because dirty dishes are bad, and one cannot be happy until the dishes are clean ... that is not what I would call Shikantaza. However, if one can wash dishes because dirty dishes are bad (but also beyond all thought of "good and bad") and because one must get the cleaning done (but also simultaneously with nothing to attain or in need of fixing) and cannot be happy until they are clean (but while simultaneously content with dirty dishes as dirty dishes, clean dishes as clean dishes, in between dishes as in between dishes ... even content with one's discontent at the dirt) ... that is rather Shikantaza.

If one sits Zazen striving to get enlightened ... not Shikantaza. If one sits Zazen striving to get enlightened ... with nothing lacking anywhere along the way ... and enlightenment in the piercing of that "nothing in need of fixing, even as we fix" ... that is Shikantaza.

Well, what goes for dish washing and Zazen applies to all practices, makiing Buddhas, praying, chanting, painting pictures, believing or not believing in God, practicing a religion, holding a political view ... anything really. We try to make ourselves more "Buddha-like" and better people, even though "Buddhas all along" with not one hair on our heads to change. If one prays or bows or chants with nothing in need of getting ... Shikantaza.

Thus, for purposes of our practice here, it all depends how it is done ... and whether it is Shikantaza.

I may be wrong, and forgive me if I misunderstood, but it seems as if experiencing this nonduality is the highest ideal. That this non-attaining goalessness itself is complete enlightenment. But many supposed zen masters have been tragically flawed individuals, just like many leaders in other religions, and just like people in general. Without a reliance on Buddhist ethics, it seems all too easy to think that sitting shikantaza is enough -- like saying a bunch Hail-Marys to absolve oneself of sin is enough.

One can behave badly, then return to the source, to enlightenment where one is a perfectly actualized Buddha, and then come back to the world and behave badly again. Around and around it goes.

Perhaps someone who is truly Enlightened (Big E) doesn't need the precepts. Perhaps one can't help but live the precepts because one is enlightened. Perhaps the precepts themselves are enlightenment. That is to say, even if one had never heard of the precepts, someone who is Enlightened would live them anyway. But most people here aren't like that. I know I'm not. What does this have to do with anything?

There are sometimes conflicts between Buddhist ethics and the ethics taught in other religions. In fact, there are sometimes conflicts in the ethics within zen as well (or have been anyway). Divorcing zen from Buddhism, or simply removing aspects of Buddhism which seem inconvenient, can lead to something like Samurai zen.

Imagine you're a Catholic Chaplain as well as a Zen Buddhist Priest, the only one within a thousand miles capable of performing marriages, and U.S. Federal law is changed to allow servicemen and woman to marry those of the opposite sex. You believe as your Christian church believes, that it is immoral, and so you refuse. This causes great suffering. Does it go against any of the precepts? I don't know. Perhaps not. Is there still a conflict there. I think so.

Is the purpose of Zen or Buddhism to help someone live rightly, or is its purpose to help someone be at peace with living rightly and/or wrongly? (And before I'm corrected, the term "right" does appear in the precepts).

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Hi Doogie,

I am going to borrow this from where you posted on the "Karma" thread today ...

There is a notion. That we (whatever "we" are) are like children. Spun off of something greater. Call it God, the Source, the Tao, whatever. We return lifetime after lifetime to grow more fully into what we are. That is, what we are capable of being. We do this by working through karma. If I kill a man in this life, perhaps I return in another to be killed so that I experience the consequence. Not as retribution, but as a tool to learn and to grow. Eventually we will have learned all that this place can teach us and we move on.

In this way, a world of suffering isn't a prison to be escaped. It is a school in which to learn.

I am not saying that such is how the universe works or not. I just want to say that what you describe might not be all so different from the "Christianity" and other belief systems hold. Call it sin ... call it karma ... call it heaven/hell or "Buddhist heaven/hell" ... and it just becomes words after awhile.

You also post above:

I may be wrong, and forgive me if I misunderstood, but it seems as if experiencing this nonduality is the highest ideal. That this non-attaining goalessness itself is complete enlightenment. But many supposed zen masters have been tragically flawed individuals, just like many leaders in other religions, and just like people in general. Without a reliance on Buddhist ethics, it seems all too easy to think that sitting shikantaza is enough -- like saying a bunch Hail-Marys to absolve oneself of sin is enough.

One can behave badly, then return to the source, to enlightenment where one is a perfectly actualized Buddha, and then come back to the world and behave badly again. Around and around it goes.

We had another thread on when Zen teachers act "Ugly, Small And All Too Human", and you might wish to have a look ...

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2074

In a nutshell, while one may realize wondrous Truths in this Practice, one must still Practice those truths and "realize" them (make them real) through our conduct. So long as we are frail human beings subject to fall in this samsara world, we are never free of the chances to act "all too human". Even the most gifted tight rope walker might stumble and fall with the next crossing, with the next breeze. Darn right that we use the Precepts and Zazen (not two), much as that pole the acrobat holds for balance in crossing.

Is the purpose of Zen or Buddhism to help someone live rightly, or is its purpose to help someone be at peace with living rightly and/or wrongly? (And before I'm corrected, the term "right" does appear in the precepts).

Hah! I would say perhaps that the purpose is to help us live rightly and gently ... and be at total peace (beyond small human thoughts of "right and wrong") in a world that can seem to go sometimes terribly terribly wrong. Something like that. 8)

Gassho, J

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Thank you, Jundo. The cosmology of Christian versus Buddhist isn't as important as possible ethical differences and practical choices, but I understand why you can't answer some of those questions.

Jundo said:

We had another thread on when Zen teachers act "Ugly, Small And All Too Human", and you might wish to have a look ...

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2074

In a nutshell, while one may realize wondrous Truths in this Practice, one must still Practice those truths and "realize" them (make them real) through our conduct. So long as we are frail human beings subject to fall in this samsara world, we are never free of the chances to act "all too human". Even the most gifted tight rope walker might stumble and fall with the next crossing, with the next breeze. Darn right that we use the Precepts and Zazen (not two), much as that pole the acrobat holds for balance in crossing.

I read through it, thank you. It's true that people are people, whether priest or president, and it's unrealistic to place anybody up on these pedestals of perfection. The practice never ends, and it's probably pretty easy to let power and praise corrupt that practice.

Sometimes the people who become priests are the last people who should be priests, just like the people who become president are the last people who should be president. In fact, I think you have to be a little crazy to want to be president. I want someone in office who DOES'T want to be president.

There's a saying in the world of psychology and psychiatry that those those who enter the field are sometimes the most screwed up people around. Some enter it in order to "fix" themselves, but only end up harming others. That's a gross generalization, of course, but all-too-common. When you put neurotic people in positions of power, those neuroses are usually going to surface.

Those relative few Catholic priests who harm children didn't become that way because they were Catholic priests. They most likely became catholic priests in order to deal with those impulses (just a hypothesis).

I don't think anybody comes to Buddhism happy, successful, content, and well-adjusted. People come because they are suffering. They're searching for a "fix," and maybe for a while they find it, and perhaps even try to pass it on to others, but that "fix" is an illusion. Wherever you go, there you are, even if you think you've finally done away with your "self." (The "self" might be an illusion, but so is doing away with it, right?)

If I've learned anything from Treeleaf (and I've learned a lot), it's that the practice isn't limited to the cushion, and it never ends. Not for a novice and not for a roshi. I've also learned that there's nowhere to get to, so if you think you've arrived, wake up and keep practicing.

Gassho,

D.

** I hope I didn't give anybody the impression that I think all priests, psychologists, and presidents are nuts or deviants. That's not the case at all. Well, maybe all presidents.

[Yugen]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Seishin Kyrill et al,

The Merton interaction with Buddhism is quite interesting. If you have not already done so, have a look at his book Zen and the Birds of Appetite... a couple of interesting points emerge from this work -

1) Merton, despite his affinity for and interest in the philosophies and religions of the East, reaffirmed his own Western lineage and roots - note that Thich Nhat Hanh also has quite a bit to say about Westerners who wish to renounce their cultural/religious roots and become Buddhists. They both appear to share the belief that one's (interfaith) practice is best based in one's original cultural/religious milieu.

2) On his Asian trip, Merton had a conversation with Nishida Kitaro (of the Kyoto School - an interesting story in itself), and he quoted Nishida's definition of God: "the spirit of unity at the center of the universe." Aside from the fact that the Kyoto scholars were for the most part Rinzai-affiliated (Shenichi Hisamatsu and the ultimate koan a favorite of mine).

It is a tragedy that Merton's intellectual and spiritual maturation was cut short -

Gassho,
Alex (Yugen)

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Well, what goes for dish washing and Zazen applies to all practices, makiing Buddhas, praying, chanting, painting pictures, believing or not believing in God, practicing a religion, holding a political view ... anything really. We try to make ourselves more "Buddha-like" and better people, even though "Buddhas all along" with not one hair on our heads to change. If one prays or bows or chants with nothing in need of getting ... Shikantaza.

Let me underline how sacred it all is, every breath and step, the sacred unity at the heart of this universe, whether washing windows, washing a face, chanting to Buddha or praying to one's image of God, working in a laboratory to unlock DNA, parenting children, being alive ... all sacred among the sacred, each the total manifestation that is the heart of reality. This sense of the sacred too, in every action and every instant of Zazen ... is Shikantaza. If one manifests such insight into every action ... praying, chanting, researching, washing ... all Shikantaza.

Do not assume that "just this ordinary life" is just "ordinary"? The Ancestors are not preaching mere resignation and stoicism, but to find the jewel and the sacred in this "seems so ordinary" existence. We encounter the "ordinary" for the wondrous, miraculous, whole and flowering treasure that it is ... and which is just "us" too. Such are the fruits of Zazen. It is only that, in Shikantaza, there is found what is here all along by giving up the search somewhere distant and apart.

Gassho, J

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

It is a tragedy that Merton's intellectual and spiritual maturation was cut short -

Yes Alex, it is a shame. I am sure that he would have had so much more to learn and to say about it. But it wasn't totally stopped. His Gethsemane Monastery took up the torch, along with a number of other monastic scholars both Eastern and Western, and with the gentle guidance of the Dalai Lama there has continued a regular meeting and association of (mostly) monastics of the Buddhist and Catholic traditions over the years. They have regular conferences and even publish work about the spiritual path together. It has grown over the years into the Monastic Inter-Religious Dialogue. No one is trying to subject one side to the other: Christian to Buddhist, or Buddhist to Christian. No one is trying to create a syncrtic form of a "new religion". What is happening on a larger scale thre is what happened with me, personally on a much smaller more personal scale; a genuine feeling of the sharing of monastic fraternity with someone of a different religion, that was at once familiar and welcoming, as well as practicable in the idiom I already understood. Once that is felt, there is a natural draw to learn how much more we share. For some of us, not all; it is comfortable enough to open up to the possiblity of monastic/priestly expression in both traditions, with the proper permissions, of course. I think Merton would have move more in that direction as time move on. Others of his Order as well as other Catholic priests have over the ensuing years. So far, as far as I know, the Pope hasn't made a move to baptise all the Buddhists, nor has the Dalai Lama moved into the Vatican.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[AlanLa]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

For the very little that it's worth, us Zennists tend to read our scriptures (sutras) more critically (as guidance from the Buddha) than Christians, who I think are taught to read the scriptures devotionally (as the Word of God). I don't know if us Zennists get taught, per se, to read the sutras more critically as much as it is encouraged or at least tolerated. On the other hand, I think Christians are often dissuaded from critical thinking about their scriptures. All this all too often adds up to conflict and talking past each other. After reading this very interesting thread, I think people in all religions could benefit from reading their respective scriptures more contemplatively, which seems a mix of both devotion and critical thinking.

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I agree Alan. Great faith, great doubt, and great determination.

[AlanLa]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Oh, I forgot to add that at the devotional level there is conflict between Buddhism and Christianity, hence your original question. But once you get to the contemplative level that conflict seems to go away. Interesting.

[AlanLa]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Sorry, just one more worthless thought. Depending on where you stand, the whole zen experience is in this thread/topic. If you stand in a place of devotion you see many mountains, or religions. If you stand in a place of criticism those mountains become rivers of thought or beliefs. And if you stand in a place of contemplation (zazen) it all becomes One Mountain, One Body.

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Depending on where you stand, the whole zen experience is in this thread/topic. If you stand in a place of devotion you see many mountains, or religions. If you stand in a place of criticism those mountains become rivers of thought or beliefs. And if you stand in a place of contemplation (zazen) it all becomes One Mountain, One Body.

That's what I wanted to say...thanks Alan. Makes sense to me.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Geika]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

What is happening on a larger scale thre is what happened with me, personally on a much smaller more personal scale; a genuine feeling of the sharing of monastic fraternity with someone of a different religion, that was at once familiar and welcoming, as well as practicable in the idiom I already understood. Once that is felt, there is a natural draw to learn how much more we share.

I'm also drawn to similarities and common themes between religions.

...at the devotional level there is conflict between Buddhism and Christianity, hence your original question. But once you get to the contemplative level that conflict seems to go away.

Depending on where you stand, the whole zen experience is in this thread/topic. If you stand in a place of devotion you see many mountains, or religions. If you stand in a place of criticism those mountains become rivers of thought or beliefs. And if you stand in a place of contemplation (zazen) it all becomes One Mountain, One Body.

Nice!

[Kyousui]

A Christian Zen Friend

Article in Zen Friends Vol. 15, Ni.1 2004 P. 13 A Christian Zen Friend Misao Kawamata Catholic Priest

[Jundo]

Article in Zen Friends Vol. 15, Ni.1 2004 P. 13 A Christian Zen Friend Misao Kawamata Catholic Priest

Hi Tom,

Is there a link?

Most of the Catholic Priests I know who are also Zen Practitioners are Jesuits, and most seem to be practitioners of Rinzai Zen or the mixed Rinzai-Soto Sambokyodan. (I wonder why not so much Soto Soto? Hmmm. Perhaps just historical fluke and one followed another in that direction.)

Robert Kennedy, S.J., Roshi, is a Jesuit priest and Zen teacher in the White Plum lineage. He studied with Yamada Roshi in Kamakura, Japan, with Maezumi Roshi in Los Angeles, and with Glassman Roshi in New York. Glassman Roshi installed Kennedy as sensei in 1991 and conferred Inka (his final seal of approval) in 1997, making him a roshi (master). Kennedy Roshi is the author of Zen Gifts to Christians and Zen Spirit, Christian Spirit.... To date, Kennedy Roshi has installed six dharma successors...and Kevin Hunt Sensei, a Trappist monk from St. Joseph's Abbey at Spencer, Mass.

For the occasion of Fr. Hunt's installation, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, S.J., wrote:

"Because of the long preparation and training required to become a master of the demanding Zen training, Fr. Hunt's achievement is one that we can all celebrate in thanksgiving to God ... Jesuits and other Christians have found Zen to be a valuable instrument for progressing in the spiritual life. ... By coming to focus on the present moment through the practice of the techniques of Zen meditation, the Christian can become aware of God's immediate loving presence."

http://kennedyzen.tripod.com/index.htm

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Myogan]

Let me feed your curiosity.

https://www.amazon.com/One-God-Clapping-Spiritual-Rabbi/dp/1580231152

As for the gentleman in your post, I'm sure he practices the paramitas. If he does so earnestly, he should handle the three poisons including delusion. If you mean the western meaning of delusion, the Buddha told the parable of the poisoned arrow to reccomend becoming entangled in metaphysical speculation, not to say not to believe in something greater than yourself. Just don't let it turn you into a pretzel.

Gassho
Sat