Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

[Jundo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

If Buddhists don't believe in an everlasting, unchanging immortal soul, and the belief of an everlasting, immortal soul is the cornerstone of Christianity, how can this dichotomy be reconciled?

Why not toss your fixed ideas and beliefs in a fixed and immortal "soul" into the wash of emptiness, and also toss your fixed ideas and beliefs in the absence of a fixed and immortal "soul" into the wash of emptiness, and toss your small human image of "unchanging and immortal" into the timelessness of emptiness, and see what comes out in the wash? Thus, the "conflict" becomes something of a "non-issue".

There is nothing wrong with this, but is it Zen? Or more specifically, is it Buddhist zen?

Please toss your rigid ideas of "Zen" and "Buddhist Zen" into the baths of emptiness too.

Then perhaps you will first have some clue as to what Zen/Buddhist Zen is!

Imagine, that you and I disagree over whether there is or is not some timeless "Buddha Nature" which we all have/are, debate the right practices to manifest our "Buddha Nature", and whether this allegedly timeless nature somehow does not vanish following what appears to be human life and death in this visible world.

Imagine that folks got so hung up on this idea of what "Buddha Nature" is or is not, and whether it is fixed and unchangeable, immortal and timeless, or not ... that "Buddhist Teachers" even had to caution such folks to drop the whole concept of "Buddha Nature" from mind, and to STOP and drop all mental divisions such as "fixed vs. flowing" "changing vs. changeless" "time bound vs. timeless" and "immortal vs. birth/death". These teachers advised folks just to drop all such categories and divisions away. Toss it all away like so much old trash.

Well, perhaps doing so will not do one darn thing to make "Buddha Nature" any more or less 'true' then it was before ... for if it wasn't a real thing before, then probably it still isn't. And if it was never realistic, then it might still not be no matter what we do. (Anyway, Buddhist teachings even say that you and me and the table across the room are not really "real" and here in all ways ... even though we quite obviously are in some ways).

However, by dropping all ideas of "Buddha Nature", and all mental divisions of time and change and changeless and all the rest ... some might say that What's thus tasted is Buddha Nature, both within time and timeless, a world changeless in its flowering changing, deathless even in a world of birth and death (perhaps life to life), just who we are all along.

Now, toss "soul" or anything else in the above equation and see what happens. Perhaps the Buddha (who quite clearly believed that something, in some way, remains after 'death', and continues on and on for countless lives) meant something like that.

Gassho, J

PS -

Also, if you wholeheartedly believe that there is a God out there who will judge you for your sins, can you still teach the dharma?

Almost all Buddhists I know, in one way or another, believe in a concept of "sin" or "evil Karma", and the heavens and hells that result. Some may take it more literally, as literal "Buddhist hells and heavens" after death ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_(Budd ... _mythology)

... or some may take it as the "hells and heavens" we make for ourselves in this world through our harmful words, thoughts and acts. No matter, we believe.

[Shokai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Isn't an after life a wonderful comforting thought? Isn't it nice to think that "those people" who do bad things will be punished in an after life?
After suffering the stings and arrows of this world we can all go (if we are good little boys and girls) to a place that will be just perfect !

Thanks for playing folks, it is what it is. I would rather "just sit" and find the truth "as it is".

More power to the one who tries to ride a number of different donkeys up the mountain. It would be easier to herd cats.

gassho,

[Ankai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

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[Ankai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Isn't an after life a wonderful comforting thought?

Not necessarily.

Isn't it nice to think that "those people" who do bad things will be punished in an after life?

Not if you have compassion for them and the obvious suffering that made them as they are.

After suffering the stings and arrows of this world we can all go (if we are good little boys and girls) to a place that will be just perfect !
Not really.

Thanks for playing folks, it is what it is. I would rather "just sit" and find the truth "as it is".
...isn't that what any religious or philosophical expression- including our own- is at its core? A search for truth? What if there's more than one "truth?"

More power to the one who tries to ride a number of different donkeys up the mountain. It would be easier to herd cats.

Unless one has great burdens. Then that extra donkey might come in handy.

gassho,

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Do I have this right?

I'm climbing up a mountain. Weighed down by not one heavy pack, but two. I think, 'drop one and the climb would be easier. You say, 'Drop both and it's easier still.' Or 'carry both, drop both, it doesn't matter. Both packs are essentially empty. Drop the mountain too. And climbing. And the one who is climbing.

[Geika]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

If Buddhists don't believe in an everlasting, unchanging immortal soul, and the belief of an everlasting, immortal soul is the cornerstone of Christianity, how can this dichotomy be reconciled?

I found a weird quote that attempts to reconcile it. It's from a book of koans published in 1959 called simply, "Zen Buddhism:"

"In satori we are able to look beyond our immediate world into the universe of original, eternal, Absolute Being-- often called the Great Emptiness-- which was before our world was formed, and will be after it disappears. In this condition we lose our sense of Self, and know ourselves to be part of the great Oneness of all. Knowing ourselves to be part of Absolute Being, our ego and our problems of ego-- sin, pain, poverty, fear-- all dissolve. This is salvation in Zen terms.

"Having reached the state of satori, we become aware that everything in all this world about us, all other living and non-living things, even our lowest animal functions, are part of Absolute Being-- and are thus essentially holy. Mountains and rocks, trees and grass blades, elephants and microbes, all share equally in the Eternal."

Why not toss your fixed ideas and beliefs in a fixed and immortal "soul" into the wash of emptiness, and also toss your fixed ideas and beliefs in the absence of a fixed and immortal "soul" into the wash of emptiness, and toss your small human image of "unchanging and immortal" into the timelessness of emptiness, and see what comes out in the wash? Thus, the "conflict" becomes something of a "non-issue".

...Imagine, that you and I disagree over whether there is or is not some timeless "Buddha Nature" which we all have/are, debate the right practices to manifest our "Buddha Nature", and whether this allegedly timeless nature somehow does not vanish following what appears to be human life and death in this visible world.

From Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land:

"Jubal called out, 'That house on the hilltop-- can you see what color they've painted it?'

"Anne looked, then answered, 'It's white on this side.'

"Jubal went to Jill, 'You see? It doesn't occur to Anne to infer that the other side is white, too. All the King's horses couldn't force her to commit herself... unless she went there and looked-- and even then she wouldn't assume that it stayed white after she left.'"

[Ankai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I'm climbing up a mountain. Weighed down by not one heavy pack, but two. I think, 'drop one and the climb would be easier. You say, 'Drop both and it's easier still.' Or 'carry both, drop both, it doesn't matter. Both packs are essentially empty. Drop the mountain too. And climbing. And the one who is climbing.

Maybe some people have found a way to use two sources of strength and wisdom to make it up the hill.

[Saijun]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Maybe some people have found a way to use two sources of strength and wisdom to make it up the hill.

Hello friends,

I agree with this sentiment, for what it's worth.

I mountain bike. I have a friend who mountain-unicycles. Same trails, same days. I use two wheels, he uses one. Each understands why the other rides, because we ride for the same reason. Each of us thinks the other is completely insane for his choice of vehicle. Which is better? Who is right? How does Grant riding a unicycle down the trail affect my own experience?

Metta,

Perry

[Geika]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I have a friend who mountain-unicycles. Same trails, same days. I use two wheels, he uses one. Each understands why the other rides, because we ride for the same reason. Each of us thinks the other is completely insane for his choice of vehicle. Which is better? Who is right? How does Grant riding a unicycle down the trail affect my own experience?

I love this analogy and I also love to unicycle as well! I've always wanted to try mountain unicycling and I just need to go out and get that good tire!

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Maybe some people have found a way to use two sources of strength and wisdom to make it up the hill.

Sure. But does this suppose then that neither of them alone is enough? Neither perfect?

From Sawaki Roshi:

Everyone believes they have to add something to their zazen. You shouldn't add anything. It's good as it is. You don't need to fool around with it.

If there is even a bit of individuality left over, it isn't pure, unadulterated zazen. We've got to practice pure, unadulterated zazen, without mixing it with gymnastics or satori or anything. When we bring in our personal ideas - even only a little bit - it is no longer the buddha-dharma.

Perhaps I've misunderstood this. If you can drop Christ and God and soul and Buddha Nature and all desire for experiencing God or Vishnu or Christ-Mind or reconnecting with the spirit of your dead dog, then it is unadulterated zazen. But if you're seeking any of these things, you're adding to it. If you're hoping for an answer or a mystical experience, then it isn't buddha-dharma. But like I said. I may have misunderstood this. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if I had.

[doogie]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

Maybe some people have found a way to use two sources of strength and wisdom to make it up the hill.

Hello friends,

I agree with this sentiment, for what it's worth.

I mountain bike. I have a friend who mountain-unicycles. Same trails, same days. I use two wheels, he uses one. Each understands why the other rides, because we ride for the same reason. Each of us thinks the other is completely insane for his choice of vehicle. Which is better? Who is right? How does Grant riding a unicycle down the trail affect my own experience?

Metta,

Perry

Not sure I understand the analogy in context with the thread. Maybe the question would be -- can your friend ride a bicycle and a unicycle at the same time? Not really a fair analogy though.

I guess the question I'm really interested in asking someone who is both an ordained Buddhist and a Christian priest is why. No judgement at all. Just curiosity. I also wonder if any of the vows might conflict.

[Taigu]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I'm climbing up a mountain. Weighed down by not one heavy pack, but two. I think, 'drop one and the climb would be easier. You say, 'Drop both and it's easier still.' Or 'carry both, drop both, it doesn't matter. Both packs are essentially empty. Drop the mountain too. And climbing. And the one who is climbing.

Pretty close, Doogie. Not minding being right is the last task. It is done when the one climbing the mountain is dropped, really dropped, not just in words.

gassho


Taigu

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I guess the question I'm really interested in asking someone who is both an ordained Buddhist and a Christian priest is why. No judgement at all. Just curiosity. I also wonder if any of the vows might conflict.

In answer to your first question: Why not? No sarcasm intended, just a real response.

In answer to your second question about vows; how could vows to live a good life, treat others with honor and respect, practice humility and voluntary poverty for the benefit of others be in conflict?

Personally, I am trying to keep my life simple: being a monastic, living simply and trying to calm the turmoil of that which we call life by spiritual practice. I'm just hoping to see the moon reflected in the pool, so I am not going to stir up and muddy the water with conflicts that do not need to be there.

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[Engyo]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

It is not "news", per se, but I remember watching this in the press as it unfolded.
There were those of a more literal and conservative view who fought this issue tooth and nail in any press which would listen. Their object was to contest the appointment of a Bishop who had also taken Jukai. Here are two takes on this story, one of which even raises the question, "Who cares?":

http://www.livingchurch.org/news/news-updates/2009/2/23/northern-michigan-elects-christian-buddhist-bishop

http://www.getreligion.org/2009/02/zen-and-the-art-of-episcopal-news/

In the case above, when all was said and done, the common people of the church just went to the convention and voted to endorse a man (not of dogma or doctrine but) of faith. "Good choice", I say.
Gassho,
Don

[Shokai]

Re: Priests and Priests: Walking the Buddhist and Christian Path

I had the fortune to be born at a very early age, into a Christian family . Consequently, I learned Christian things; values, creeds, prayers, songs and such. Some of these stick with me and give delusional comfort at times. I was confirmed into the Anglican Church and enjoyed the privilege of receiving its sacraments on several occasions. I struggled with the miracles of Jesus and came to realize with time what a miracle consists of; understanding of the laws of nature or the lack of it. BUT, the one thing that has always stuck in my craw is the thing about Christianity ( or Judaism, or Islam, Or Hinduism, or any other ism) being the one and only way to salvation (or do we really need to be saved; and from what.) I can feel resonations with Kabbala, an esoteric theosophy of rabbinical origin based on the Hebrew scriptures and developed between the 7th and 18th centuries. I cried when I first read the Koran; at the pure beauty of it ( it's even better in Arabic, btw.) For a time I thought it would be nice to be pre-Hinduistic. Another diversion was to study and follow the Bahai faith. All, have their merits. (As Fugen would say, "It's all good.") I can understand what is meant by saying the sins of the fathers .... I see this now as the passing down of ignorance from generation to generation through myths and old wives tales. However, I feel that there are so many interpretations to the word 'sin' and I'm afraid to think of how many persons in positions of power have milked this to the bone. We should all flow with the herd without worrying about which donkey whoever is riding. The ilk of a person is not in what they wear or how they think, it's in how they relate. If what we think is our reality, then it all falls into line anyway .

Br. Kyrill wrote [probably the truest and most sincere words one will ever hear.]:

how could vows to live a good life, treat others with honor and respect, practice humility and voluntary poverty for the benefit of others be in conflict?

Personally, I am trying to keep my life simple: being a monastic, living simply and trying to calm the turmoil of that which we call life by spiritual practice. I'm just hoping to see the moon reflected in the pool, so I am not going to stir up and muddy the water with conflicts that do not need to be there.

Don wrote:

when all was said and done, the common people of the church just went to the convention and voted to endorse a man (not of dogma or doctrine but) of faith. "Good choice", I say.

As above, Ioften use the analogy of riding a donkey to to reach the top of the mountain. If someone can truly ride two, three or all in the same lifetime, more power to him/her.

and thereto I plight thee my troth.

gassho,