zazen

[scott]

Re: zazen

In one of your talks you said that sitting is a perfect and complete act. Then why so many teachings? Why so
many different views on how to do it? And how can it be perfect? If I am "already there" then why sit? Why the need for instruction and practice? Why practice being what I already am?

Let me quote someone else:

As I study both the exoteric and the esoteric schools of Buddhism, they maintain that human beings are endowed with Dharma-nature by birth. If this is the case, why did the Buddhas of all ages—undoubtedly in possession of enlightenment—find it necessary to seek enlightenment and engage in spiritual practice?

That's Dogen, and eventually that question sent him to China.

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

In one of your talks you said that sitting is a perfect and complete act. Then why so many teachings? Why so
many different views on how to do it?

Many chefs, and many recipes for how to cook a meatloaf.

And how can it be perfect? If I am "already there" then why sit? Why the need for instruction and practice? Why practice being what I already am?

Yes, this is the Koan that sent Dogen to China ... If we are all already Buddha ... why the need to practice?

Or put another way, "if this moment is ever perfectly this moment, if our every action is just perfectly what it is, and if there is not a thing to add or take away from this life and world ... then what does it matter how we act in this moment, or do or don't do in this life and world?" Seemingly, it is all the same, all "perfectly just-what-it-is".

In a nutshell, Dogen's answer was this: Because what we do with this moment makes all the difference in the world! How we act makes our life.

Knowing that there is "no place to go, no destination", does not mean that there are not paths in life more conducive than others to a balanced life and Buddhist practice (remember, in Zen practice, we are often seeing things simultaneously from several seemingly contradictory angles ... for example, "no place to go, but good and bad ways to get there" :shock: )

Simple example ...

Perhaps a fellow sits down to Zazen for the first time who is a wife-beater, thief and alcoholic. He hears that "all is Buddha just as it is", so thinks that Zen practice says "all is a jewel just as it is, so thus maybe I can simply stay that way, just drink and beat my wife and rob banks". Well, no, because while a thief and wife-beater is just that ... a thief and wife-beater, yet a Buddha nonetheless ... still, someone filled with such anger and greed and empty holes to fill in their psyche is not really "at peace with how things are" (or he would not beat and steal and need to self-medicate). In other words, he takes and craves and acts out anger and frustration because he does not truly understand "peace with this life as it is" ... cause if he did, he would not need to be those violent, punishing ways.

As well, one simply cannot taste the fruits of Buddhist practice if one is so filled with anger, violence, pain and need that one is violent, abusive, clutching! That is why the Precepts, as guidelines to a balanced and moderate, healthful life, support our practice and make it easier to realize the fruits there. Simply put, someone filled with peace and non-violence and simplicity is more likely to understand the meaning of "peace with this world as it is" than someone who is daily violent and angry. Thus, the Precepts direct us to be the former, not the latter.

If the angry, violent fellow truly knew "completeness", truly had "no hole in need of filling" everything "complete just as it is" ... well, he simply would not have need to do violence, steal and take drugs to cover his inner pain.

You see ... kind of a self-fulfilling Catch-22.

This "goalless sitting", by the way is --not-- merely sitting on our butts, self-satisfied, feeling that we "just have to sit here and we are Buddha". Far from it. It is, instead, too-the-marrow dropping of all need and lack. That is very different. Someone's "just sitting around" doing nothing, going no where, complacent or resigned, giving up, eating one's fill, is not in any way the same as "Just Sitting" practice wherein nothing need be done, with no where that we can go or need go, for all is faced 'head on' and energetically as already whole and complete ... even while we realize that the choices we make in life have consequences, that how we choose to walk the walk in this life, and the directions we choose to go, do make a difference!

For this reason, through our Zazen practice, we can taste that each second of life is a perfect arriving, there is no place to go or to which we need go. Yet, we have to know that, despite having ever and always arrived, we keep living nonetheless, and how we do that is very important. The choices we make have consequences. So, if someone were to think I am saying, "All you need to do in Zazen is sit down on one's hindquarters, and that's enough ... just twiddle your thumbs in the 'Cosmic Mudra' and you are Buddha" then, respectfully, I believe they do not get my point. But if they understand, "There is absolutely no place to be, where one needs to be or elsewhere where one can be, than on that Zafu in that moment, and that moment itself is all complete, all-encompassing, always at home, the total doing of All Life, Time and Space fully realized" ... they are closer to the flavor. . Then, if they rise up from the Zafu ... sensing that they are "Buddha" ... and then try to act in life a bit more how a Buddha would act, they get the point.


Zazen seeks no change, needs no change, is complete and whole ... and that realization works a revolutionary change.

But saying "there is nothing in need of change, we are always whole and completely who we are" ... does not mean that there is not much about us in need of change to allow us to live well! (Zen Masters talk out of both sides of no sided mouth! ) We can live seeing life from both angles... as complete, yet sometimes with much perhaps to repair ... as all paths the same, but with some that lead off a cliff ... at once.

Does that make sense ... in a Zenny way?


Gassho, J

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Does that make sense ... in a Zenny way?

Indeed. Finally, I am speechless. I will put less energy into my mouth (asking asking aksing) and more into my butt (sitting sitting sitting). Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,
Greg

P.S.

I was attempting some humor and didn't mean it as a correction.

I got the humor. Thanks for the response. I guess correction was the wrong word. Anyway,
Treeleaves does sound kinda silly now that I think of it. ops:

[agata]

Re: zazen

I just wanted to thank you all for the wonderful teaching you gave here! It was a pleasure to hear you asking and answering and pointing.

Gassho,
Agata

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Jundo,

Just wanted to say thanks for todays talk, Zazen for Beginners (Part XIV).

It went straight to the heart of what I've been asking about for the past
week or so. If I may quote...

"When we experience that we are sitting as the Buddha sitting, as the Buddha sitting,
the seperation between us and the world vanishes...the anger, the greed, can be
no more."

If I ever do get a tattoo...well, I can't think of any finer words to carry around with me
for the rest of my life. :wink:

Gassho,
Greg

P.S.

In Not Always So, Shunryu Suzuki quotes Dogen saying, "To have right practice is to have
a good teacher and to receive right guidance." Just wanted to say again how thankful I am that
Treeleaf exists. Bows to all.

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

If I ever do get a tattoo...well, I can't think of any finer words to carry around with me
for the rest of my life. :wink:

Gassho,
Greg

P.S.

In Not Always So, Shunryu Suzuki quotes Dogen saying, "To have right practice is to have
a good teacher and to receive right guidance." Just wanted to say again how thankful I am that
Treeleaf exists. Bows to all.

Well, don't get a tattoo with my name on it. The honeymoon can't last forever. 8)

[Hogo]

Re: zazen

Well, don't get a tattoo with my name on it. The honeymoon can't last forever. 8)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dosho]

Re: zazen

If I ever do get a tattoo...well, I can't think of any finer words to carry around with me
for the rest of my life. :wink:

Gassho,
Greg

P.S.

In Not Always So, Shunryu Suzuki quotes Dogen saying, "To have right practice is to have
a good teacher and to receive right guidance." Just wanted to say again how thankful I am that
Treeleaf exists. Bows to all.

Well, don't get a tattoo with my name on it. The honeymoon can't last forever. 8)

That's what big red circles with a diagonal line through them are for...tattoos of former zen teachers and girlfriends named Muffy.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: zazen

If I ever do get a tattoo...well, I can't think of any finer words to carry around with me
for the rest of my life. :wink:

Gassho,
Greg

P.S.

In Not Always So, Shunryu Suzuki quotes Dogen saying, "To have right practice is to have
a good teacher and to receive right guidance." Just wanted to say again how thankful I am that
Treeleaf exists. Bows to all.

Well, don't get a tattoo with my name on it. The honeymoon can't last forever. 8)

That's what big red circles with a diagonal line through them are for...tattoos of former zen teachers and girlfriends named Muffy.

Everyone knows that the tattoo of the Zen Teacher's name is the death blow of the relationship.

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Everyone knows that the tattoo of the Zen Teacher's name is the death blow of the relationship.

I meant the quote, not the name... ops: ops: ops:

:lol:

[ghop]

Re: zazen

A monk asked Chao-chou:
"Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not?"
Chao-chou replied: "He does not."

Sometimes I think of Buddha-nature as a little puppy,
I may think I have lost it, but it is never far away.



Attached files

[Tb]

Re: zazen

Hi.

Lengthy article on the story here.
http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?It ... ext-135-94

It appears both in the mumonkan and the book of serenity, slightly different, but same, same...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Hi.

Lengthy article on the story here.
http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?It ... ext-135-94

It appears both in the mumonkan and the book of serenity, slightly different, but same, same...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Thanks Fugen!

This paragraph really spoke to me...

"We have no Buddha Nature" expresses the tragic side of our lives. Terrible things happen, we cause them or we don't, and we suffer. Why do they happen? Because we have a mind, because we are sentient, expressing, desiring, creatures and we cannot escape this nature. If we were stones or trees no one could murder us or diminish us. Even a great hurricane would not harm us. But since we are human beings with human minds even a cross word can wound our souls. Knowing this is how we are, and through long reflection on our experience finding patience with it, through the suffering and bitterness we feel, we finally come to forgiveness. We forgive ourselves and each other. We forgive the world. We know there is a way to live, a way to make effort for the good, in this world as it really is. We see through our stories and the stories of others, hearing the music in them, without being much annoyed by the noise. We are more willing to be amazed, to listen, to be sympathetic, even to our enemies."


Gassho,
Greg

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Yes, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow...all forms of Shikantaza really.
At Treeleaf, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular.

Jundo,

Since Nishijima was your teacher and you obviously practiced "his way" of zazen for a time at least, at what
point did you change from this to practicing "your way" of open, spacious sitting? I hope this doesn't come
across wrong. I am simply curious as to what led you to practicing this way as opposed to the former? I am
curious about the process of growing to a point of self-trust as opposed to tediously following "rules." I feel
so nervous at times about doing everything "right" in my practice that I feel like it does more harm than good.
Anyway, maybe I'm still missing the point. Curious all the same. Thanks.

Gassho,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

Yes, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow...all forms of Shikantaza really.
At Treeleaf, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular.

Jundo,

Since Nishijima was your teacher and you obviously practiced "his way" of zazen for a time at least, at what
point did you change from this to practicing "your way" of open, spacious sitting? I hope this doesn't come
across wrong. I am simply curious as to what led you to practicing this way as opposed to the former? I am
curious about the process of growing to a point of self-trust as opposed to tediously following "rules." I feel
so nervous at times about doing everything "right" in my practice that I feel like it does more harm than good.
Anyway, maybe I'm still missing the point. Curious all the same. Thanks.

Gassho,
Greg

Hi Greg,

Oh, I still consider that I am practicing in Nishijima Roshi's way, and certainly in keeping with the "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki-Uchiyama Roshi corner of Soto Zen we fall in, and certainly within Soto Zen, Zen, Buddhism ... etc.

You know, there is something quite close about our Practice and the Practice of learning to be, for example, a classical pianist in a conservatory (I actually have a couple of those in my family). I may play the same black and white keys, and the same 'Bach and Beethoven' as my teacher ... but everyone phrases the music in their way of expression. Same tune, same instrument. Otherwise, Buddhism would have changed not a drop over the centuries (which it did, even though the heart is unchanged)

I am a guy who grew up in the 70's in America, Nishijima Roshi and Sawaki Roshi in 1930's Japan ... (and, of course, Dogen in the 13th century, and Buddha 2500 years ago in Ancient India) ... so same music, but different ears and voices. I actually have practiced Soto Zen with a few "music teachers" in addition to Nishijima Roshi, and learned from all of them

(if you want the whole boring "Jundo Story", I post it from time to time) ...
viewtopic.php?p=27865#p27865

In the Zen world, it is fine to learn from many teachers ... small children and fools are teachers ... rocks and trees are our teachers ...

So, yes, Nishijima Roshi emphasizes more placing the mind on keeping the backbone straight, I emphasize focusing the mind on "open, spacious" sitting ... both traditional approaches to Shikantaza (like focusing on the Hara, the breath, etc.), like one pianist holds his hand one way, and another another way, on the keys. Same difference, pros and cons in dropping all thought of "pros and cons" ...

I hope that someday you learn to play a heck of a piano in your style. In the meantime, keep practicing your scales.

Let me know if that answers the question.

Gassho, Jundo