zazen

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

So, I should just sit, eyes opened, staring at a wall, not counting breaths, not labeling thoughts, expecting nothing and resisting nothing, right?

That is right, eyes half or 1/3 open. Taigu or I will talk about it on the "sit-a-long" in the coming days, but I only recommend counting or following the breath as "training wheels" or a temporary measure for someone who really really really cannot get the mind settled, is lost in stormy clouds and needs something to help them settle down a bit.

Generally, in Soto Zen, we teach counting the breaths, or observing the breath, merely as a way to settle the mind for beginners who are truly inexperienced and struggling with having the mind settle down. After a few weeks or months, the training wheels come off, and different teachers will recommend different things

So, for that reason, I recommend that folks only count breaths until they feel that the mind is more settled, as if feeling like stirred up water in a jar that has settled down. When you feel rather calm and composed, and the thoughts have slowed to those drifting clouds ... then I recommend sitting then with open, spacious awareness ... focused on everything and nothing in particular, sitting with the whole world but without being lost in trains of thought (which I also sometimes describe as having the mind focused on "no place and everyplace at once"). My reason for that is simply that I believe it makes it a bit easier to take this practice off the Zafu and out into the world. (Also, on aggitated days, when the mind won't settle down, no harm in going back to counting the breaths for a few minutes ... but when calm is restored, we return to open, spacious sitting).

So, the breath counting is just training wheels on the bike, and I would avoid that if not needed. In addition, even if you do count for a time, you should take the training wheels off as soon as you feel that you can sit with some calm and concentration, the mind pretty settled and focused, not lost in long chains of thought, daydreams and wild emotions.

Blanche Hartman of SFZC tells a nice Suzuki Roshi story on this ...

When I began to practice with Suzuki Roshi... I had become quite concentrated on my breath. I was quite pleased with myself and said, "Roshi, I can count my breath now without missing any. What do I do now?" I think I expected him to say, Good for you, or something like that. Instead, he became very fierce and said, "Don't ever think that you can sit Zazen. That's a big mistake. Zazen sits Zazen!!"

How long is recommended for a beginner?

A lifetime! 8)

But I recommend at least 15 minutes a sitting minimum, but ideally 20 to 35 minutes. Twice a day is suggested, but I will also be talking soon about something I call Jundo's patented "Insta-Zazen" ©, which is basically Zazen out in the world, any place any time ...

I would also like to encourage everybody to try Jundo's Patented "Insta-Zazen" © throughout each day. You don't even have to "sit" for these "sittings", but can sit while standing, lying down, jumping on the bed or hanging by one's feet. "Insta-Zazen" © can be of any length, starting from but a moment until infinite time (which may be the same!). We "Insta-Sit" © at times in our day when just a bit of "Zen Mind"© will change our perspective on all things, when a touch of balance will bring life into balance ...

Just standing in a creeping postal line, in the dentist's chair, when the car won't start on a cold morning, when driving and stuck in traffic, when the computer crashes, wherever and whenever ... just do what you do in Zazen, with the Lotus Position fully optional (it tends to get in the way while driving or having a root canal, although it might work in the postal line if you keep pushing along.).

read more here ...

viewtopic.php?p=29890#p29890

And what about when I'm not on the zafu? I know some teachers have their students pay special attention to special things (the breath, the body, what is going on, etc.).

Insta-Zazen! All of life is "Zazen" in its wider meaning, even though only sitting on the cushion each day is "Zazen".

I ask alot of questions. :?

That is what you are supposed to do, even if there are sometimes answers and sometimes none and always "just sit".

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

Here is a newsletter article from my teachers Dharma sister. This article really sparked something in me, maybe it will for someone here: http://www.milwaukeezencenter.org/final ... s_9-09.pdf

Gassho,

Al

Thank you, Al. Tonen O'Connor is one of my favorite people, a very down to earth teacher. A lovely description ... She says there,

Suchness is doing or being, but not doing or being for.

But just because there is not purpose, does not mean it is a waste of time ...

Shikantaza is the practice of undertaking what's to be done, without reference to reward or failure. It is a practice we can transfer to our life's activities. It is a liberating practice of doing whatever is to be done and gives us strength to face hard and sometimes pointless things

Shikantaza is the Dharma Gate of great repose and bliss, but only if we don't try to use it to get there.

[Shohei]

Re: zazen

^^Thank you Al!
A very good thread! Still learning plenty!

Deep bows all,
Shohei

[ghop]

Re: zazen

The whole thing about the anger issues, the frustration, that I wrote about in the original post is something that didn't come up until I started zazen. I'm not blaming zazen. But kinda I am. I have alot on my plate right now. My wife and I have been trying to get pregnant for almost a year now. Nothing is happening. The company I work for is closing its doors in March. I can't leave or I will loose my severance pay. My father has lung cancer. I'm short. I could go on and on, as all of you probably could. Don't mean to be a downer here. It's just that until zazen I didn't have to face any of that. I could kick the cat or curse a stop light or something. Now I sit facing a wall and sometimes it feels like really being up against a wall. Nowhere to go. Nobody to blame. No escape. Just sitting there with everyting not being the way I want it to be. That pisses me off. I read today in Hardcore Zen where the author said that when he first started practicing zazen he more or less hated it. But like quitting smoking he knew somewhere deep inside that it was good for him so he continued to practice. I don't hate it. I don't love it. But I know that somewhere down the road I'll stop looking for the exit and just be happy to be on the road. Just maybe.

Gassho,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

The whole thing about the anger issues, the frustration, that I wrote about in the original post is something that didn't come up until I started zazen. I'm not blaming zazen. But kinda I am. I have alot on my plate right now. My wife and I have been trying to get pregnant for almost a year now. Nothing is happening. The company I work for is closing its doors in March. I can't leave or I will loose my severance pay. My father has lung cancer. I'm short. I could go on and on, as all of you probably could. Don't mean to be a downer here. It's just that until zazen I didn't have to face any of that. I could kick the cat or curse a stop light or something. Now I sit facing a wall and sometimes it feels like really being up against a wall. Nowhere to go. Nobody to blame. No escape. Just sitting there with everyting not being the way I want it to be. That pisses me off. I read today in Hardcore Zen where the author said that when he first started practicing zazen he more or less hated it. But like quitting smoking he knew somewhere deep inside that it was good for him so he continued to practice. I don't hate it. I don't love it. But I know that somewhere down the road I'll stop looking for the exit and just be happy to be on the road. Just maybe.

Gassho,
Greg

No escape.

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

The whole thing about the anger issues, the frustration, that I wrote about in the original post is something that didn't come up until I started zazen. I'm not blaming zazen. But kinda I am. I have alot on my plate right now. My wife and I have been trying to get pregnant for almost a year now. Nothing is happening. The company I work for is closing its doors in March. I can't leave or I will loose my severance pay. My father has lung cancer. I'm short. I could go on and on, as all of you probably could. Don't mean to be a downer here. It's just that until zazen I didn't have to face any of that. I could kick the cat or curse a stop light or something. Now I sit facing a wall and sometimes it feels like really being up against a wall. Nowhere to go.

You know, as a country music fan ... well, the Dharma is often preached with a steel guitar. Here is a good one ... please have a listen ...

Craig Morgan - This Ain't Nothin LYRICS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-W4w1dMoB4[/video]]

He was standing in the rubble of an old farmhouse outside Birmingham
When some on the scene reporter stuck a camera in the face of that old man
He said "tell the folks please mister, what are you gonna do
Now that this twister has taken all that's there to you"
The old man just smiled and said "boy let me tell you something, this ain't nothing"

He said I lost my daddy, when I was eight years old,
That cave-in at the Kincaid mine left a big old hole,
And I lost my baby brother, my best friend and my left hand
In a no win situation in a place called Vietnam
And last year I watched my loving wife, of fifty years waste away and die
And I held her hand til her heart of gold stopped pumping,
So this ain't nothin'

He said I learned at an early age,
There's things that matter and there's things that don't
So if you're waiting here for me to cry,
I hate to disappoint you boy, but I won't

Then he reached down in the rubble and picked up a photograph
Wiped the dirt off of it with the hand that he still had
He put it to his lips and said man she was something
But this ain't nothin'

He said I lost my daddy, when I was eight years old,
That cave-in at the Kincaid mine left a big old hole,
And I lost my baby brother, my best friend and my left hand
In a no win situation in a place called Vietnam
And last year I watched my loving wife, of fifty years waste away and die
We were holding hands when her heart of gold stopped pumping
So this ain't nothin'

This ain't nothin' time won't erase
And this ain't nothin' money can't replace
He said you sit and watch your loving wife fifty years fighting for her life
Then you hold her hand til her heart of gold stops pumping
Yeah boy that's something,
So this ain't nothin'
Yeah this ain't nothin'

Here's another one with a similar theme, very Buddhist (except for the whiskey) ...

Darryl Worley - sounds like life to me LYRICS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geg6_-3jPzI[/video]]

Got a call last night from an old friends wife, said, I hate to bother you
But Johnny Ray fell off the wagon, hed been gone all afternoon
Well, I know my buddy, so I drove to Scullys and found him at the bar
Said, Hey Man, whats goin on, He said, I dont know where to start
Sarah's old car startin to fall apart and the washer quit last week
We had to put Mama in the nursing home and the baby's cuttin teeth

Sounds Like Life To Me
I didnt get much work this week and I got bills to pay
I said, I know this aint what you wanna hear but its what Im gonna say
Sounds like life to me, it aint no fantasy
It just a common case of everyday reality
Man, I know its tough but you gotta suck it up
To hear you talk youre caught up in some tragedy
It sounds like life to me

Well, his face turned red and he shook his head
He said, you dont understand, three kids and a wife depend on me
And Im just one man, top it off we just found out that Sarahs two months late
I said, Hey, bartender, set us up a round, we gotta celebrate
Sounds like life to me, aint no destiny
Yeah, the only thing for certain is uncertainty
You gotta hold on tight, just enjoy the ride
Get used to all this unpredictability, sounds like life
Man, I know its tough but you gotta suck it up
To hear you talk youre caught up in some tragedy
Sounds like life to me (sounds like life to me)
Sounds like life

And here is one of the great ones out there right now ... give it a good 'ol listen ...

Kenny Chesney » I'm Alive Lyrics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tex0U7qS7h4[/video]]

So damn easy to say that life's so hard
Everybody's got their share of battle scars
As for me I'd like to thank my lucky stars that
I'm alive and well

It'd be easy to add up all the pain
And all the dreams you've sat and watch go up in flames
Dwell on the wreckage as it smolders in the rain
But not me... I'm alive

And today you know that's good enough for me
Breathing in and out's a blessing can't you see
Today's the first day of the rest of my life
And I'm alive and well
I'm alive and well

Stars are dancin' on the water here tonight
It's good for the soul when there's not a soul in sight
This boat has caught its wind and brought me back to life
Now I'm alive and well

And today you know that's good enough for me
Breathing in and out's a blessing can't you see
Today's the first day of the rest of my life
Now I'm alive and well
Yeah I'm alive and well

[JohnsonCM]

Re: zazen

One of my favorite Buddhist sayings, and I even attached it as my signature on my emails at work, goes like this:

Let us all be thankful, for if we did not learn alot today, at least we learned a little. And if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick. And if we got sick, at least we didn't die. So, let us all be thankful.

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Thanks Jundo!

He was standing in the rubble of an old farmhouse outside Birmingham

Not far from where I live. About forty five minutes. It's where all the cool stuff happens. Saw KISS there twice. Ted Nugent. Skid Row. The Foo Fighters. Coldplay. The Rolling Stones. Now there's some lyrics for ya..."I can't get no (da da da) no satisfaction!

I would like to say that my sitting has been going well lately. Once I stopped trying to make zazen into
something it's not (a means to an end) everything just clicked! Been reading where Ushiyama says to
just aim at the zazen posture with your flesh and bones. Put it into practice. Up to that point I had
been worrying about all the content in my head. He says that if you bring your attention back to the
simple AND REAL fact that you're just sitting then thought just vanishes on its own. Like you said,
the goal isn't to become thought-less, like a rock, but just to bring your mind back to sitting, over
and over and over again. I think you said it best when you said, "Just sit!" :wink:

Anyway, thanks for everything. Up til now my only teachers have been in books. It's nice having one
who answers questions (and listens to country music!).

And thanks to my fellow "Treeleaves." Your responses to my beginner's questions have been so helpful!
Up til now my sangha consisted of just two of us...myself and my cat!


Gasho,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

Been reading where Ushiyama says to
just aim at the zazen posture with your flesh and bones. Put it into practice. Up to that point I had
been worrying about all the content in my head. He says that if you bring your attention back to the
simple AND REAL fact that you're just sitting then thought just vanishes on its own. Like you said,
the goal isn't to become thought-less, like a rock, but just to bring your mind back to sitting, over
and over and over again. I think you said it best when you said, "Just sit!" :wink:

Yes, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow, and there are others who emphasize focusing on the breath or the Hara (also called the "Tanden", the traditional "center of gravity" of the body, and a center of Qi energy in traditional Chinese medicine) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian

all forms of Shikantaza really. All forms of Shikantaza have an "object of meditation", a place to focus or place the mind to build concentration and quiet the thoughts (hopefully to soften the border and pass through "object" and "subject"), while dropping all effort to attain and releasing all judgements.

At Treeleaf, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular. I will speak more on the "sit-a-long" later this week about why, but it is (in my view) easier to bring out into the world ... and to be "at one" with the world without pushing it away. Taigu is also giving a good series of talks about posture, and it touches upon why the Japanese can be a bit obsessed about posture (as an aspect of their culture, even more than Buddhist meditators about anywhere else in Asia). I once wrote this ...

Some Japanese lineages (much more than the Koreans, Chinese, Tibetans and other Buddhists), tend to obsess about holding a stern, rigid, optimal Lotus Position. (I have spoken about this before). Please read this link too, about Japanese and "Kata" (and some other misconceptions about Shikantaza) ...

viewtopic.php?p=12161#p12161

If you need a place to feel you are "placing the mind", I recommend on the top of the palm in the left hand while in the Mudra. Yet, keep that "spacious, unobstructed, everywhere and no one place" emphasis.

Some Japanese teachers and lineages can be a bit too focused on the sitting posture itself, as a fetish ... as if the posture of the Lotus itself has some mystical power. Shikantaza has a wider meaning than that, that sweeps in all of reality. It is Shikantaza, even if one is sitting in a chair or standing on a train.(I mean, it is a wonderful posture conducive to balance and Zazen ... but not alone the central point of Zazen.

But Uchiyama has one of the most elegant "diagrams" of Shikantaza's way in his book "Openning the Hand of Thought". Lovely.

EVERYONE, go here, search the word "line", find page 52, entitled "Waking Up To Life", and read to page 60 (about the diagram drawing on page 54) ... notice especially the part where he says "Zazen is not being glued to line ZZ'" (what I might call "returning to the clear, open, blue sky 10,00 times and 10,000 times again")

http://books.google.com/books?id=fOU_1v ... ne&f=false

Gassho, Jundo

[ghop]

Re: zazen

At Treeleaf, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular.

Oh boy. More questions.

So I don't focus on my posture? Am I trying to attain a state of bare awareness? How do I focus on
everything and nothing at once? Do I listen to sounds? Do I allow myself to slip away when I feel still and
see where that takes me or do I pull myself back? And if I pull myself back then what to? If I am focusing
on nothing? Wow. My head is a highway right now. I'm sure I'm making simple things confusing.

Also, must I do zazen in the morning? I have to be at work at 5:45 a.m. Much easier to meditate before bed. Is this alright?

Should I be doing anything else? Reciting the Heart Sutra daily, etc???

Gassho,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

At Treeleaf, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular.

Oh boy. More questions.

So I don't focus on my posture? Am I trying to attain a state of bare awareness?

Whether you focus on the posture, the breath, the top of the left hand, the Hara, or the sensation of clear, open blue sky (with clouds drifting out) that I recommend ... one should eventually sometimes attain to an open, unobstructed, holding everything without discrimination or division feeling ... What Uchiyama calls "line ZZ" in his essay, and what I call clear open sky.

However, I say "sometimes" (and Uchiyama says "don't stay glued to ZZ") because the whole thing is the trip, reject nothing ... not the thoughts and emotions that drag you away from ZZ", not the clouds which sometimes block the clear blue sky. It is all life, all perfectly what it is. Sometimes it will be "bare awareness", sometimes awareness of this or that. Drop all judgments, drop all goals and need to get someplace else or to be any other way.

Yet, nonetheless, return again and again to ZZ, to the clear blue sky (allowing the thoughts and emotion clouds to drift away). If you notice you are engaged in trains of thought, release them, drop them, and return to ZZ. Repeat endlessly.

All that, at once, is "Shikantaza".

How do I focus on everything and nothing at once?

Yes, well, this is one reason it is called "practice" ... trial and error. It is like asking "how do I play the piano"? Start by practicing your scales.

Do I listen to sounds?

You will hear sounds. When you notice that you are thinking about sounds you are hearing (oh, nice birdy outside, I wonder what kind of birdy, I wonder if it will poop on my car, I need to get a car wash) .... release, return to "Just Sitting" Sometimes, you cannot, and will be lost in thoughts worried about your dirty car. Sometimes you may even be without any thought of "bird" and "you" and "sounds" and "hear" (and "poop" and "car"!) ... If so, Just Keep Sitting!

All that, at once, is "Shikantaza".

Do I allow myself to slip away when I feel still and
see where that takes me or do I pull myself back?

Return 10,000 times and 10,000 times again to open, aware, illuminated, spacious sitting.

Wow. My head is a highway right now. I'm sure I'm making simple things confusing.

Ah, progress! :P Yes, our heads are busy highways, rushing here and there. Nice sometimes just to sit or just to drive, no where to go.

Also, must I do zazen in the morning? I have to be at work at 5:45 a.m. Much easier to meditate before bed. Is this alright?

Yes, many folks sit before bed. Sometimes it is harder, because we are sleepy then and rather worn out. Even mid-day (during a lunch break) is good. But sit at least once a day (plus Jundo's patented "Insta-Zazen" ©, which I will talk about on the sit-a-long in the coming days)

Should I be doing anything else? Reciting the Heart Sutra daily, etc???

Daily Zazen is the only practice that is truly indispensable. Sitting daily on the cushion, practicing Shikantaza.++

(then, on top of that, everything ... changing diapers to reciting the Heart Sutra ... is also seen as 'Zazen' in its wider meaning.)

Gassho, Jundo

++ PS - Oh, and keep studying about Buddhism and Zen Practice, such as you are.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: zazen

So, it sounds like what you are saying is that shikantaza is sort of like practice for the mind. Like if you have bad posture, and you keep practicing standing up straight, after a while you stand up straight without needing to consiously think about it. It just happens. So when you do that, you can just be. The mind stops creating a difference between bird and car and you and it's just all rolled together in one big birdcaryou. I may be overthinking again but, that's kind of how I envision "suchness" as just an all pervading, all encompassing sense of just being. Everything from the floor beneath your rear end to the passing thoughts about the balance of your checkbook (which you let go and drift away) is being. Or "suchness" or shikantaza.

Am I way off base here?

[Dosho]

Re: zazen

I would like to say that my sitting has been going well lately.

I know what you mean, but one thing that really helped me: Just as there is no "bad" zazen, there is no "good" zazen as its opposite. A sitting is neither good nor bad, it is a sitting and focusing on the supposedly positive can be just as detrimental as focusing on the seemingly negative.

And thanks to my fellow "Treeleaves."

You're welcome, but it's Treeleafers.

Gassho,
Dosho

[ghop]

Re: zazen

You're welcome, but it's Treeleafers.

Oops... ops: Thanks for the correction!

Jundo,

Drop all judgments, drop all goals and need to get someplace else or to be any other way.

If I could do that I would be teaching! :lol:

In one of your talks you said that sitting is a perfect and complete act. Then why so many teachings? Why so
many different views on how to do it? And how can it be perfect? If I am "already there" then why sit? Why the need for instruction and practice? Why practice being what I already am? Maybe I screwed myself up by practicing other techniques of meditation in the past. Maybe I should just "empty the cup." But I want to get this thing. I want to understand this more than I've ever wanted anything in my life. As soon as I think I've got it it slips away, or I am contradicted.

So...

Let's say I've never heard of shikantaza or any of this mess. I come to you completely ignorant of all this (NOT FAR FROM THE TRUTH NOW!!!) and ask you to give me instructions in how to practice zazen...what would you say?

Gassho,
Greg

[Dosho]

Re: zazen

You're welcome, but it's Treeleafers.

Oops... ops: Thanks for the correction!

Hey Greg,

Although the term has always been Treeleafers (to my knowledge anyway), I was attempting some humor and didn't mean it as a correction. My apologies and I actually think Treeleaves is an interesting way to think of the sangha.

Gassho,
Dosho