zazen

[ghop]

I've been doing Zazen (faithfully) for about two weeks now. At first, it was such a relief just to sit in that still place, nothing to do, nowhere to go. I had tried so many types of meditation in the past and all of them were exhausting in some way or another, always a distant goal to reach. Zazen was uniquely refreshing. Now it's not so simple. I find myself competing with previous days experiences. I am aggressive lately, irritable. I have tension in my neck. I feel like I have tricked myself into taking the "diver's seat" in my zazen, only there is nothing to drive. I just sit there feeling all wrong about it. I analyze it before, during, and after. How can I become simple again?

Gassho,
Greg

[Shohei]

Re: zazen

Hiya Greg!

I know what ya mean there it goes like that some times from my own experience. Just going to say zazen is zazen, just sitting, that's it... I mean you were uniquely refreshed and now your not - irritated, sore neck and all!
Probably im going to irritate ya just a bit more and say.....

Just sit anyways.

Easier said then done it seems some days! Perhaps you should check out the "Zazen for beginners" (we are all beginners!!!) sit-a-longs posted, if you haven't already. Very helpful! May or may not help irritability but could help you with your sore neck! I know there will be a lot more sage advice following..but hey I was up

Gassho
Shohei

[Tb]

Re: zazen

Hi.

First don't panic.

"When this happens do this, when that happens do that."

Just watch what happens.
It will pass, or not.
Either way, just sit.
It will work itself out.

Lastly, dont panic.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[scott]

Re: zazen

I've been doing Zazen (faithfully) for about two weeks now. At first, it was such a relief just to sit in that still place, nothing to do, nowhere to go. I had tried so many types of meditation in the past and all of them were exhausting in some way or another, always a distant goal to reach. Zazen was uniquely refreshing. Now it's not so simple. I find myself competing with previous days experiences. I am aggressive lately, irritable. I have tension in my neck. I feel like I have tricked myself into taking the "diver's seat" in my zazen, only there is nothing to drive. I just sit there feeling all wrong about it. I analyze it before, during, and after. How can I become simple again?

Gassho,
Greg

Sounds like you're making great progress :-). You are simple again, you always were. It's astoundingly simple. You don't have to be concerned with any of that stuff. That apparent person in the driver's seat ... that's okay, that's something that arises. Sometimes it lasts for a long time, but in this moment it's just there.

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

I've been doing Zazen (faithfully) for about two weeks now. At first, it was such a relief just to sit in that still place, nothing to do, nowhere to go. I had tried so many types of meditation in the past and all of them were exhausting in some way or another, always a distant goal to reach. Zazen was uniquely refreshing. Now it's not so simple. I find myself competing with previous days experiences. I am aggressive lately, irritable. I have tension in my neck. I feel like I have tricked myself into taking the "diver's seat" in my zazen, only there is nothing to drive. I just sit there feeling all wrong about it. I analyze it before, during, and after. How can I become simple again?

Gassho,
Greg

Hi Greg,

Today's sit-a-long happens to be connected to this subject. Would you have a look, let me know if there is something helpful there.

http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p ... more-14544

There is no "bad" Zazen ... even the really bad Zazen! :shock:

Gassho, Jundo

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Ok. Lotsa good advice here. Thank you Dirk, Fugen, Scott, and Jundo.

1. "Sit anyway." (Because what else can I do? Run? Where would I go?)

2. " Don't panic." (As I so often do when things don't go MY WAY!)

3. "Just be with whatever rises." (Aha! Here's where staring at that wall makes me sweat!)

Thanks guys. Now all that's left is to put this encouraging advice into practice. grrr...

And Jundo, today's sit along was just what I needed. I've been having a "cloudy day" in my practice lately, forgetting all about the "clear blue sky." I like the idea of just sitting with all of the
junk as it comes, as it goes. I also went back and watched the talk from sit along Part V. I need
to relax and enjoy the journey. I often visit Mt. Cheha, the tallest peak in Alabama, and hike or
just sit on Bald Rock. When you talk about walking in the woods just for the sake of walking it really
puts the proper attitude of zazen practice into perspective for me. Today at work I was thinking
about zazen (I know, I know, live in the present moment, even at work!!!) and about how absurd it is to
have to ask how to sit, facing a wall, nowhere to go, nothing to do. Facing that wall is like coming
up against something I can't figure out or get past without just surrendering to the fact that it is
the end of the road as far as searching goes. For a control freak, not so easy. But having the support
of this sangha helps so much more than I could ever put into words. Thanks!

Gassho,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

(I know, I know, live in the present moment, even at work!!!)

Thank you, Greg.

I do need to pick up this one comment though. Sometimes, to "be in the present moment" at work is to focus exclusively on work and the present moment. But sometimes, to "be in the present moment" at work is to be thinking in the present moment about yesterday, today or tomorrow, Zazen or your loved one or your favorite TV show. Both are being "in the present moment" (for when and where else can you be)?

Folks sometimes misunderstand "being in the moment" as only the first kind. And, truly, that is a useful skill (there are certainly appropriate times to have all our attention focused on the action right in front of us ... at work, only doing work ... watching a sunset, just the sunset ...)

But there are times for the second type, and that is "being in the present moment too" and very appropriate and a fine part of life at many times of the day (we do not live by work alone, thinking of "right now" alone).

For this reason, I prefer to say "being at one with the present moment", whatever it contains, is more important that "being in the moment". Being amid conditions of life X, but overly wishing to be instead amid conditions Y, is --not-- "being at one with the moment". Allowing and being embraced by conditions X when in X (even if part of X is that you simultaneously would not mind at all if things were Y instead!! :shock: ) --is-- being at one with the present moment, however it is.

So, when working, just do that. When thinking about tv, just do that. When thinking about Zazen, just do that. In fact, when thinking about and wishing to watch tv even when you should be working or doing Zazen... well, that is human, so just do that.

Nonetheless, if thinking about tv or work while doing Zazen ... turn again and again to the clear, spacious, luminous sky. Just do that. :shock: :shock:

Gassho, Jundo

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Jundo, thanks. I am grateful for your time and teaching.

Gassho,
Greg

[Dosho]

Re: zazen

Hey Greg,

I'm a bit late to offer any advice since everything has really been said, but I will tell you the first thought that crossed my mind as I read your post:

"Seems to be taking to this path quite well!"

I remember back to when I was a few weeks in and I was driving myself crazy with questions about posture, sitting length, what time the hot water heater was going to be installed, is the lawn too wet to mow...I was driving myself crazy insane.

And that's "good"...no good or bad really...it just takes awhile, but I think you are headed in a good direction.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Taigu]

Re: zazen

Thanks Al. I t is wonderdul to witness that people sometimes get a profound understanding and deepen their practice. You are pretty close to what the old fool is saying on his vid about sitting with the body-mind and leeting Buddha do the job.

gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

We are sitting down at the dinner table with everything else in the universe and minding our manners. Everything else in the universe doesn't really have to make this non-effort because only humans have brains.

I agree. And this made me smile. Gassho, Jundo

[JohnsonCM]

Re: zazen

I've been talking to Jundo about some of the things that keep popping up and affecting my mindframe lately. He just kept on telling me to sit, let go. Lots of stress, lots of thoughts, lots of "clouds". But yesterday, I sat zazen and just tried to let things go, and for a moment, I'm not sure how long, but for a moment I really just felt "whole". Not really anything else. The stressfull situations were still there, and the zazen didn't make them go away, they were still waiting for me when the bell rang again, but I was ok with that. I accepted the thoughts and let them just move by, sort of like standing on the side of the road and a car passes by. The passage of the car may rock you a bit, but then it's gone past and quiet and wholeness returns. I was really pleased with that feeling.

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Wow! Thanks for such an incredible response! There is so much wisdom here. I am humbled, encouraged, and inspired by these replies. It is a testimony to the value of zazen practice. Deep bows to all!

So, I should just sit, eyes opened, staring at a wall, not counting breaths, not labeling thoughts, expecting nothing and resisting nothing, right?

How long is recommended for a beginner?

And what about when I'm not on the zafu? I know some teachers have their students pay special attention to special things (the breath, the body, what is going on, etc.).

I ask alot of questions. :?

Gassho,
Greg

[Dosho]

Re: zazen

Greg,

The obvious answer to your question is, "Go Sit!"

I think you will find many of the answers if you poke around the forum and watch the sit a longs (every vid has the same suggested sitting length written into the post). Asking questions is a good thing, yes, but go sit, see what happens and what doesn't, and then drop all of it.

Sit. Rinse. Repeat.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Jinyu]

Re: zazen

Asking questions is a good thing, yes, but go sit, see what happens and what doesn't, and then drop all of it.

That's a very very good advice! Probably the best...
It reminds me about Josshu, when a disciple asked him about the essence of buddhism he answered

"Have you eaten your rice porridge?"

"Yes, I have," replied the monk.

"Then you had better wash your bowl," said Joshu.


Deep Gassho,

Luis
ps: Just sit as a common friend says :wink: