zazen

Re: zazen

(I know, I know, live in the present moment, even at work!!!)

Folks sometimes misunderstand "being in the moment" as only the first kind. And, truly, that is a useful skill (there are certainly appropriate times to have all our attention focused on the action right in front of us ... at work, only doing work ... watching a sunset, just the sunset ...)

But there are times for the second type, and that is "being in the present moment too" and very appropriate and a fine part of life at many times of the day (we do not live by work alone, thinking of "right now" alone).

I think the point of a lot of Zen teachings isn't to deny the importance of that second type of being in the moment - but let's face it - we spend a LOT more time there than is really warranted. We can live our whole lives there and 'miss' our actual lives. I think of Zen as a bit of a corrective on this natural tendency we have as humans to reflect on the past and project into the future.

Chet

Re: zazen

This is such a great thread! I admire your honesty and openness Greg. I go through phases with zazen and the times I've stopped was because I was feeling the same things that you mentioned. I noticed that I was becoming irritable and frustrated very easily. I also thought that it should'nt be happening because I was doing zazen. As of lately, I haven't been sitting much. It seemed like when I stopped doing zazen, the irritability went away. As much as I read about just sitting and not expecting anything, in the back of my mind I still thought that doing zazen would automatically make me a more peaceful person. I am glad to see that I wasn't alone in those feelings. This thread has answered a lot of questions and concerns for me. Greg and all the great advice on this thread has inspired me to sit zazen on a consistent basis again

[ghop]

Re: zazen

I don't want to make any assumptions but I would like to ask a question: are you looking for a kind of static stability?

Well...yes and no. Gotta remember I'm an Alabama boy, raised a Baptist, and by God
I want some ground under my feet :!: On the other hand, I've seen how much suffering
can come from trying to justify oneself with unrealities. Just afraid I might be doing
it again with Zen. I read where Thich Nhat Hanh said, "A minute of meditation is a
minute of peace and happiness. If meditation is not pleasant for you, you are not
practicing correctly." I read things like that and then look at my pratice and think,
"What the hell am I doing wrong?" But I agree that I should just let it flow. I think
I have more "knots" than I suspected. It's kind of unsettling, meeting myself for the
first time in my life and thinking, what a turd. But that's what my thoughts point to.
Just a selfish, self-protecting turd. Had a dream the other night that a tornado hit
the shopping mall here in town. You know who was first to run to the storm shelter?
Me. You know who was the only person in the shelter? Me. Just a dream but it tells
me alot about myself. Thank you though. You've been a great help.

Yes, if you are having difficulty to sit still, and to drop demands and judgments of 'how things should be' ... the 'self' will be frustrated.

Thanks Jundo. And good luck with the class. I will keep sitting. But oh boy have I stirred up
a hornets nest. :|

Gassho,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

Hi Greg,

I share your frustration, as I am taking some courses now in traditional Japanese/Chinese character calligraphy. I think I am getting worse at it as the weeks go by, and even the characters that look good to me ... well, the teacher always finds something off balance. Arggghhh! But, I know, things like this take time ... do not happen overnight ... and need to become a natural part of the body-mind.

Zazen is not that different from many skills in that way ... such as learning to play the piano, speak a new language. So, some frustration is to be expected, and is even part of the process.

I would say that, in my guess from some of your writings, you perhaps expressed the issue best in your own words. Does this sound right to you?

I've never really stayed with anything that didn't give me immediate results. ... ... Is this what my sitting is showing me? That I can't be still? Can't accept the moment? Want zazen to get me high? ... Do I analyze too much? ...

That would be my guess.

The "harmony and balance" of Zazen you mention greatly derives from accepting the moment, being 'at one' with the moment as we drop demands and resistance to changing circumstances, going with the flow (as Scott put it), finding stillness even as and through the motion of life, dropping desires and demands for how the frustrated 'me/myself/I' self wants things to "should be" vs. "life just as we find life".

Yes, if you are having difficulty to sit still, and to drop demands and judgments of 'how things should be' ... the 'self' will be frustrated.

You know, when I drop resistance to how I think my Chinese characters "should be" ... and just relax into the situation and the writing ... they do get better. Same feeling when I relax into my sitting. Suddenly, it just feels right.

While sitting should I ask myself such
questions as, "Who is sitting?" "Who is hearing traffic?" "Who is itching?"

Not in our way of "Just Sitting" Shikantaza. With time, those questions will take care of them-selfs.

Or
just sit there like a rock?

No. A rock, I presume, has no thoughts and emotions at all. We are vibrant, alive. However, in Zazen we do not cling to or stir up our thoughts and emotions, do not become attached to "should be's" and judgments, just let them go.

So, we are like "living rocks" perhaps.

I've had "experiences." Felt like the sound of traffic was somehow "inside my body" rather than "out there."

Yes, those are important and natural experiences to have in Zazen. However, in our style, we take them just as an interesting view, a reference, a gift of seeing something ... and move on. We do not run after that, do not run away.

You know, last year I taught our 6 year old to ride his bike, also a simple skill that seems impossible ... looks impossible ... before you do it. He fell off dozens of times, lots of skinned knees and such. He was ready to give up but kept going back.

Now ... he just rides rides rides.

Gassho, Jundo

[scott]

Re: zazen

Just sit. Well just sitting is driving me crazy. Where's the harmony I keep
hearing about? Where's the balance? It seems like meditation, even zazen, if done
correctly, should bring more peace into one's life. I seem to be losing more and
more peace the longer I practice.

I don't want to make any assumptions but I would like to ask a question: are you looking for a kind of static stability? Each point in space and time is inherently unstable, and the whole thing flows, like an all-encompassing river, all the time. Let your zazen flow. Does that help?

While sitting should I ask myself such
questions as, "Who is sitting?" "Who is hearing traffic?" "Who is itching?" Or
just sit there like a rock? Gee, I've never had trouble sitting until I started
trying to do it intentionally.

Let go of the "do". Everything you are looking for is here already.

The rest I can't help with, it's beyond me.

Gassho ... Scott

[ghop]

Re: zazen

So my practice is, well, not so good. I don't know if it's common to post such dribble
about personal practice, but I don't have the confidence to go it alone and lately I
feel like I've been led to the edge of a cliff and left there. Do I go back? Do I jump?
No. Just sit. Well just sitting is driving me crazy. Where's the harmony I keep
hearing about? Where's the balance? It seems like meditation, even zazen, if done
correctly, should bring more peace into one's life. I seem to be losing more and
more peace the longer I practice. I do keep sitting. And that surprises me. I've
never really stayed with anything that didn't give me immediate results. For some
reason I keep coming back to that dreadful cushion. But really, maybe zazen is not
for me. Or maybe I am doing it wrong. While sitting should I ask myself such
questions as, "Who is sitting?" "Who is hearing traffic?" "Who is itching?" Or
just sit there like a rock? Gee, I've never had trouble sitting until I started
trying to do it intentionally. Is this just me talking because I like to hear myself,
see my avatar on the computer, feel important? Is this what my sitting is showing
me? That I can't be still? Can't accept the moment? Want zazen to get me high?
That I crave attention? Do I analyze too much? My lord, am I really gonna post this
sh#%!!?? Am I going crazy? Maybe I should shut up. But I just keep feeling like I'm
doing something wrong or I would have more of the positive qualities I hear others
talk about. I've had "experiences." Felt like the sound of traffic was somehow
"inside my body" rather than "out there." But less peace, less balance, less harmony.
Shoot me. Holler at me. Run me off the message board. But before you do...
HELP!!!

Deep Bow, Sweaty Brow,
Greg

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

Hi Jundo.

Thanks for answering my question. Again, I hope I didn't come off as rude for asking.
IN NO WAY did I mean for it to seem like I was questioning your personal practice or
method of teaching.

No, it is good, and you should, ask questions like that.

[ghop]

Re: zazen

I hope that someday you learn to play a heck of a piano in your style. In the meantime, keep practicing your scales.

Hi Jundo.

Thanks for answering my question. Again, I hope I didn't come off as rude for asking.
IN NO WAY did I mean for it to seem like I was questioning your personal practice or
method of teaching. What the heck do I know? I was speaking more from a viewpoint
of gaining confidence in one's own practice, something I seem to be having difficulty
doing. It's as if I want someone to more or less say, "Do this and do that and all will
turn out perfectly." I know this is immaturity on my part and would probably go away
if I would just shut up and sit down. Anyway, thanks again. Gassho.

The incessant feeling of needing to find the object drove me batty and forced me to compare objects as better or worse.

Hi Al. Your post really spoke to me. I do indeed feel like I'm driving myself "batty." Things
that were not an issue before I started practicing (right and wrong practice, etc.) have
become stumbling blocks lately. It's nice to know others have been through this beginning
period and made it.

The wonderful thing about the blue sky analogy is that you can never force the clouds to part so that you can see the open blue sky. They will drift apart on their own. If you sit there and simply allow the sky to be what it is, the idea of discriminating any thing in the sky as good or bad starts to become a little ridiculous. The blue sky never went anywhere and there is nothing wrong with clouds(white, gray, or black). Its all the sky and all your life.

It's insight like that that gives me hope and keeps me sitting. Maybe I'll "get there" one day. Thanks.

Gassho,
Greg

[Amelia]

Re: zazen

Very beautiful. Thank you, Amelia. Gassho, Jundo

No, thank you. :lol:

Gassho.

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

I like Jundo's method. I don't need to count my breaths to focus on my breathing, and I don't need to focus on my breathing to attain spaciousness. There are many who do. Some traditional techniques distract me. I don't like to force anything wasteful inside.

The first time that you learn something you enjoy, you feel a bit like a master. You only know the basics, but somehow that's all you need. It 'clicks' inside of you. That is like 'no mind.' When we study and methodize, we tend to lose this flow and replace it with calculation.

Doctrine is only words. Words are just someone's thoughts. The feelings of inspiration that accompanied those thoughts were no different from the same feelings you receive when you awaken to your own Buddha nature.

[

Very beautiful. Thank you, Amelia. Gassho, Jundo

[Amelia]

Re: zazen

...I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular.

I am curious about the process of growing to a point of self-trust as opposed to tediously following "rules." I feel
so nervous at times about doing everything "right" in my practice that I feel like it does more harm than good.

I like Jundo's method. I don't need to count my breaths to focus on my breathing, and I don't need to focus on my breathing to attain spaciousness. There are many who do. Some traditional techniques distract me. I don't like to force anything wasteful inside.

The first time that you learn something you enjoy, you feel a bit like a master. You only know the basics, but somehow that's all you need. It 'clicks' inside of you. That is like 'no mind.' When we study and methodize, we tend to lose this flow and replace it with calculation.

Doctrine is only words. Words are just someone's thoughts. The feelings of inspiration that accompanied those thoughts were no different from the same feelings you receive when you awaken to your own Buddha nature.

[

[Jundo]

Re: zazen

Yes, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow...all forms of Shikantaza really.
At Treeleaf, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular.

Jundo,

Since Nishijima was your teacher and you obviously practiced "his way" of zazen for a time at least, at what
point did you change from this to practicing "your way" of open, spacious sitting? I hope this doesn't come
across wrong. I am simply curious as to what led you to practicing this way as opposed to the former? I am
curious about the process of growing to a point of self-trust as opposed to tediously following "rules." I feel
so nervous at times about doing everything "right" in my practice that I feel like it does more harm than good.
Anyway, maybe I'm still missing the point. Curious all the same. Thanks.

Gassho,
Greg

Hi Greg,

Oh, I still consider that I am practicing in Nishijima Roshi's way, and certainly in keeping with the "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki-Uchiyama Roshi corner of Soto Zen we fall in, and certainly within Soto Zen, Zen, Buddhism ... etc.

You know, there is something quite close about our Practice and the Practice of learning to be, for example, a classical pianist in a conservatory (I actually have a couple of those in my family). I may play the same black and white keys, and the same 'Bach and Beethoven' as my teacher ... but everyone phrases the music in their way of expression. Same tune, same instrument. Otherwise, Buddhism would have changed not a drop over the centuries (which it did, even though the heart is unchanged)

I am a guy who grew up in the 70's in America, Nishijima Roshi and Sawaki Roshi in 1930's Japan ... (and, of course, Dogen in the 13th century, and Buddha 2500 years ago in Ancient India) ... so same music, but different ears and voices. I actually have practiced Soto Zen with a few "music teachers" in addition to Nishijima Roshi, and learned from all of them

(if you want the whole boring "Jundo Story", I post it from time to time) ...
viewtopic.php?p=27865#p27865

In the Zen world, it is fine to learn from many teachers ... small children and fools are teachers ... rocks and trees are our teachers ...

So, yes, Nishijima Roshi emphasizes more placing the mind on keeping the backbone straight, I emphasize focusing the mind on "open, spacious" sitting ... both traditional approaches to Shikantaza (like focusing on the Hara, the breath, etc.), like one pianist holds his hand one way, and another another way, on the keys. Same difference, pros and cons in dropping all thought of "pros and cons" ...

I hope that someday you learn to play a heck of a piano in your style. In the meantime, keep practicing your scales.

Let me know if that answers the question.

Gassho, Jundo

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Yes, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow...all forms of Shikantaza really.
At Treeleaf, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all, on all things, and nothing in particular.

Jundo,

Since Nishijima was your teacher and you obviously practiced "his way" of zazen for a time at least, at what
point did you change from this to practicing "your way" of open, spacious sitting? I hope this doesn't come
across wrong. I am simply curious as to what led you to practicing this way as opposed to the former? I am
curious about the process of growing to a point of self-trust as opposed to tediously following "rules." I feel
so nervous at times about doing everything "right" in my practice that I feel like it does more harm than good.
Anyway, maybe I'm still missing the point. Curious all the same. Thanks.

Gassho,
Greg

[ghop]

Re: zazen

Hi.

Lengthy article on the story here.
http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?It ... ext-135-94

It appears both in the mumonkan and the book of serenity, slightly different, but same, same...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Thanks Fugen!

This paragraph really spoke to me...

"We have no Buddha Nature" expresses the tragic side of our lives. Terrible things happen, we cause them or we don't, and we suffer. Why do they happen? Because we have a mind, because we are sentient, expressing, desiring, creatures and we cannot escape this nature. If we were stones or trees no one could murder us or diminish us. Even a great hurricane would not harm us. But since we are human beings with human minds even a cross word can wound our souls. Knowing this is how we are, and through long reflection on our experience finding patience with it, through the suffering and bitterness we feel, we finally come to forgiveness. We forgive ourselves and each other. We forgive the world. We know there is a way to live, a way to make effort for the good, in this world as it really is. We see through our stories and the stories of others, hearing the music in them, without being much annoyed by the noise. We are more willing to be amazed, to listen, to be sympathetic, even to our enemies."


Gassho,
Greg

[Tb]

Re: zazen

Hi.

Lengthy article on the story here.
http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?It ... ext-135-94

It appears both in the mumonkan and the book of serenity, slightly different, but same, same...

Mtfbwy
Fugen