Personality cults and fundamentalism

[Shonin]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

But as opposed showing respect for the Devil, respecting one's decision on reincarnation is not the support of Evil. It's simply a viewpoint different from your own.

And to say it is Truth as in denouncing the Devil for obvious reasons. You cannot prove or dispprove literal reincarnation. Cannot be done. What is silly to you is not silly to others. Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe every claim of one's supposed past lives. I go at it with a skeptics perspective.

Also remember when bashing on another's beliefs people often make fun of Buddhism as well.

Perhaps what you say is true in regards to IQ. Mine really isn't that high, just the botton rung of genius. Not to mention, it measures a potential to learn as opposed to a strict score measuring the ins and outs of intelligence.. But it illustrates the point that i'm not stupid. nor am I an idiot for disagreeing with you.

As far as any wisdom I possess? Who can say? Unintelligent people can also be unwise. I'd like to think i'm not wise at all. More surprises as I sit more.

Both Wisdom and Intelligence can be easily squashed by the ADD. Then again, both have been known to be enhanced in those rare moments.

But I am just barely wise enough to see the obvious faults in preaching about another's lack of realization while being quite insulting and acting as if one is more aware of the nature of things than everyone who disagrees with him. Using your own words " Wouldn't it be more wise to say "I don't know...." ." It was soooo common sense when poking at the Dalai Lama.

But while i'm sure we won't see eye to eye, perhaps we could sit together in the people with minimal social skills corner? That's usually my corner of the Zen Hall but i'm happy to share, am cool like that.

Dave _/_

And please, by all means, you can have the last word.

[Kevin Solway]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

It's simply a viewpoint different from your own.

Not all viewpoints are equally sane, and I argue that the belief in literal rebirth is very much insane, and for a whole range of reasons. On the one hand there's no evidence for it, and on the other hand there's no reason to support the possibility of it.

You cannot prove or dispprove literal reincarnation. Cannot be done.

It depends on what you mean by "literal reincarnation".

Can you disprove the existence of the invisible pink unicorn? No you can't. But that doesn't mean the belief in the invisible pink unicorn is a sane belief.

I can also defeat the belief in literal rebirth on purely logical grounds, but I won't go into that now, unless you want to start a whole new topic about it.

Also remember when bashing on another's beliefs people often make fun of Buddhism as well.

Many Buddhists deserve to be made fun of.

while being quite insulting

It's only your interpretation that it is insulting. I don't think the the Dalai Lama himself would find it to be insulting. He may even admit that my criticisms are perfectly true.

And please, by all means, you can have the last word.

I'm not sure I'd want the last word, as that would mean I'm about to die!

[Myoshin]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Maybe this is just a helpful hint but I do not know if anymore can be said on this subject.

But while i'm sure we won't see eye to eye, perhaps we could sit together in the people with minimal social skills corner? That's usually my corner of the Zen Hall but i'm happy to share, am cool like that

Agreed.

Shall we sit with that?

Gassho,
Kyle

[Shonin]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

I hereby, nominate Kyle as coolest guy in Calss. Can I get a second? ( come sit with me Kyle. Haven't been able to do that with ya yet.)

Dave _/_

[Myoshin]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

I would man, but I have to get up early tomorrow... class.

Maybe Friday? Around the same time?

Gassho,
Kyle

[Shonin]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

I'll Pm ya so as not to interferre with the thread.

[will]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

I'm not sure I'd want the last word, as that would mean I'm about to die!

I just have to say, that made me laugh.

Gassho

[Tobiishi]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

And for the sake of Pete, leave my invisible pink unicorn out of this. Pick on somebody your own IQ.

[Shonin]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

LOL, Tobi.

[Eika]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

My 2 cents, Kevin:

I am no fan of fundamentalism of any sort. I am also no fan of blind adherence to dogma. I think there are many silly beliefs and practices in Tibetan Buddhism as there are in Catholicism, Presbyterianism, Republicanism, Zen, etc. To hold tightly to ANY system is most often folly. I think the videos are strong on opinion and weak on content. There's not much "proof" (whatever that means in postmodern times) and a lot of opinion.

My issue is that your flavor of agnosticism/skepticism is not used as a mirror, only a spear.

The Dalai Lama has used his fortunate "accident" of being born into a life of wealth and respect to his advantage at times . . . OK, but you and I have done the same.

The Dalai Lama's followers have been blinded by rhetoric, tradition, and unquestioned assumptions . . . OK, but you and I have done the same.

The Dalai Lama believes and perpetuates beliefs in things that are unproveable, improbable, and, therefore, "silly" by modern standards of proof . . . OK, but you and I have done the same.

Now, I'm not suggesting that our faults prevent us from speaking out about the faults of others. What I am suggesting is that our faults make us humble WHEN we have to do the unpleasant work of pointing them out.

To speak frankly, I see more pride in your video than true call for change and awakening. The medicine must be delivered in a proper dosage and method to work well.

Lastly, I honestly share many of your criticisms of Tibetan Buddhism. The strength of its dogma, the infighting between NKG and Dalai Lama groups, the elaborate supernatural explanations for things that they don't understand, are all reasons that I parted ways with the local Tibetan group 15 years ago. I'm simply not so sure that I'm not just as silly as they are about other beliefs . . . but I'm making the effort.

Peace,
Eika

[Kevin Solway]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Intelligent comments Elka,

From my perspective I've been gifted with knowing certain things and I don't see any reason to mince my words. Mincing words is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

As for how the medicine should be delivered - I think that's a very difficult issue, and is ultimately best decided by each individual, since only they know for sure what their own motives are (hopefully). But the issues you raise are good food for thought for anyone.

Personally, I'm not interested in beating around the bush and pandering to people's precious feelings. The situation is too serious for that. The very last thing I want to be is misunderstood, and I've learned through experience that if I sugar-coat my words, or soften them in any way, then 95% of my message is lost - which is effectively all of it.

I'm simply not so sure that I'm not just as silly as they are about other beliefs . . . but I'm making the effort.

I respect that. Obviously I consider that I'm working from a position that is a little more secure, and less vulnerable to collapse, or I wouldn't be taking the rather bold approach that I am. Even though I'm far from perfect, I do believe that my eyes are open to a great many fundamental truths of which the Dalai Lama knows nothing.

[disastermouse]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Intelligent comments Elka,

From my perspective I've been gifted with knowing certain things and I don't see any reason to mince my words. Mincing words is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

As for how the medicine should be delivered - I think that's a very difficult issue, and is ultimately best decided by each individual, since only they know for sure what their own motives are (hopefully). But the issues you raise are good food for thought for anyone.

So, you've naturally elected yourself to this role of truth dispenser? Everyone is so fucking sure of themselves. I think we need a little less certainty and conviction and just a little more meditative inquiry.

Personally, I'm not interested in beating around the bush and pandering to people's precious feelings. The situation is too serious for that.

No, it really isn't. It isn't important at all. Other people aren't the problem. But since you aren't interested in pandering to people's precious feelings, certainly you won't mind if I follow that dictate myself for just a moment...

Obviously I consider that I'm working from a position that is a little more secure, and less vulnerable to collapse, or I wouldn't be taking the rather bold approach that I am. Even though I'm far from perfect, I do believe that my eyes are open to a great many fundamental truths of which the Dalai Lama knows nothing.

Okay. What you said is just plain stupid and frankly, Adharmic. Really? More 'secure and less vulnerable to collapse?' Excuse me, there's this religion I've heard of that refutes this idea of security and basically states that all positions are insecure and very very vulnerable to collapse. Perhaps you've heard of it - I think it's called 'Buddhism'. Google it.

You take yourself far, far too seriously. Go ahead, Quixote ... charge if you want to - but leave alone those of us swimming against the current of general idiocy and mal-prescribed remedies to misdiagnosed problems. When you first posted, I thought you might have some sort of idea what the hell you were talking about - tenuously or not...but far from being the 'head of the class' as you seem to think you are, you're really quite dharmically retarded.

Chet

[Shonin]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

As the Unofficial Offical Judge , I give Chet 3 points for using "Dharmically Retarded" in a sentence.

NyQuil Prophet _/_

[Taigu]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Hi Kevin,

From my perspective I've been gifted with knowing certain things and I don't see any reason to mince my words. Mincing words is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

As for how the medicine should be delivered - I think that's a very difficult issue, and is ultimately best decided by each individual, since only they know for sure what their own motives are (hopefully). But the issues you raise are good food for thought for anyone.

Personally, I'm not interested in beating around the bush and pandering to people's precious feelings. The situation is too serious for that. The very last thing I want to be is misunderstood, and I've learned through experience that if I sugar-coat my words, or soften them in any way, then 95% of my message is lost - which is effectively all of it.

I'm simply not so sure that I'm not just as silly as they are about other beliefs . . . but I'm making the effort.
I respect that. Obviously I consider that I'm working from a position that is a little more secure, and less vulnerable to collapse, or I wouldn't be taking the rather bold approach that I am. Even though I'm far from perfect, I do believe that my eyes are open to a great many fundamental truths of which the Dalai Lama knows nothing.

I would not say it in the same legendary Chet style, but frankly your arrogance is quite revealing. I know that arrogance very well for I am not immune to it, just increasingly aware of it when it shows its tail in my mind. That s Buddhist practice, noticing our own delusions, none of your posing as a judge or a referee has to do with the real thing. You approach is not even bold, in Buddhism being bold is being naked and simple. The sooner you realize it, the better. Just sit. Study the self. Pick up genjokoan. Read the final paragraphs, they apply to what you exeprience now. Enjoy life. Leave the lamas alone. Develop a nice sense of humour and whoever you love, just express gratitude to them and hug them and extend this to the whole world, Dalai lama included. Come on, it is not too hard... Please, pay attention.

gassho


Taigu

[Taigu]

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

And by the way, the mess is entirely ours and mincing words is not what Jundo is talking about.


gassho


Taigu