Personality cults and fundamentalism

**Myoshin** · 09-22-2009, 03:36 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Hi Kevin.

I am not sure I agree with you on all points here.

There seem to be a lot of statements but no citiations or facts (sorry I am a science major, and I prefer that when dealing with things of this magnitude that one supports his claims correctly). Your ideas are your own and I respect you for having them.

I am not an avid supporter of reincarnation in the Tibetan sense of the word, but I would not call their view insane. They are kind of our Dharma grandfathers. It is true that there are some 'bad eggs' in a dozen, so to speak, but I think that is seen in mostly every religion (see the crusades, witch hunts and jihads as some examples).

Right speech is something that everyone should practice, from monks who post signs defaming others, or some who defame other's beliefs.

I am no authority, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Deep gassho,
Kyle

**Kevin Solway** · 09-22-2009, 05:52 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Originally posted by Myoshin

There seem to be a lot of statements but no citiations or facts (sorry I am a science major, and I prefer that when dealing with things of this magnitude that one supports his claims correctly).

I hear what you're saying, since I am a science graduate myself.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "no citations", since the word of the Dalai Lama himself, which was provided in quite a number of instances, is a kind of citation and fact that goes straight to the source . . . unless you think they might be CGI. :-)

I have my doubts about some of the translations in the documentary, and I have my doubts about the story reported on the buddhist news site. But what can I do, since the Dalai Lama won't talk to me personally. And there can be no communication when one party refuses to speak to the other.

But I strongly suspect that the documentary stories of violence in the followers of the Dalai Lama are true, since I have experienced this for myself personally on many occassions.

I am not an avid supporter of reincarnation in the Tibetan sense of the word, but I would not call their view insane.

It's a matter of personal choice. And I think that if the word "insane" can be applied to anything at all, then it has to be applied to such views as these.

They are kind of our Dharma grandfathers.

I wouldn't go that far. There are some things about the Tibetan form of the religion that I can appreciate, such as their meticulous structuring of systems and ideas. But then I appreciate that about the Germans too!

It is true that there are some 'bad eggs' in a dozen, so to speak, but I think that is seen in mostly every religion (see the crusades, witch hunts and jihads as some examples).

In my experience, for every one bad egg in a dozen, there are ten people who are complicit to their being bad.

Right speech is something that everyone should practice

For me, the most essential quality of "right speech" must be truthfulness, and the genuine intent to make the truth known, for its own sake.

**Tobiishi** · 09-22-2009, 08:58 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Gassho...

Kevin, what is your intention in posting these videos? I don't see how their content contributes to this Sangha at all. Vitrol is rarely beneficial, in my opinion.

gassho,
tobiishi

**Kevin Solway** · 09-22-2009, 10:23 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Originally posted by Tobiishi

Kevin, what is your intention in posting these videos?

1. Primarily, stimulating people to think.
2. Revealing a side of the Dalai Lama that few people know - a lesson in karma
3. Highlighting the pitfalls of blind faith
4. Warning people about the deceptions of e-sangha

I think the best way to learn is from the mistakes of others. If one does this then one is quite literally "learning from past lives". We should all seek to avoid making the same mistakes as those made by the Dalai Lama.

**Taigu** · 09-22-2009, 11:00 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

hi kyle,

Thank you for this contribution. Allow me to disagree with the nature of this work of yours. If I share some of your views (in fact, many), I don't really accept the style. The words are pretty harsh and the judgement is sharp, there is a lot of Manjushri in this and not enough of Kannon. The Shambala myth and fantaisy that Lopez brillantly spotted, this dream of the West about Tibet is a real issue indeed, based on a collection of naive beliefs: nevertheless the best way to make people think is not to put together very abrupt statements about a religious leader and his followers, not to stir more agitation and further anger. You might to deal with your own disappointement here more than sheding some light on this. Catharsis, not proper thinking. If you really want to make people think, it takes a bit more, more time, more distance, more stillness. The best way forward would be to understand why the West buys these lies...I think we all agree here that blind faith is dangerous and leads to all sorts of violence, symbolicaly enacted or real.
A much more positive approach would be to explain and live the open reality of Buddhsit teachings rather than starting another witch hunt ( so many already, and yes, you are right, E-sangha is a big nest of fundamentalism). A much more balanced view would be to see through the human conditioning and the cultural bounds, his, theirs, mine, yours... they exist in tibetan Buddhism, they also do in Japanese Zen. In doing so, to understand that there is no perfect teacher or perfect teaching, and this in itself, is at the same time perfection itself. Maybe you could get a bit more familiar with the teachings of Nagarjuna?
I am a bit tired of these ego driven voices that, in the name of their intellectual or religious truths, are ready to go into the next crusade in full gear with great glee and energy. They plague this world and people's heads, they make some Zen teachers very abusive and turn lamas into crooks and criminals. These voices are mine too. As well as yours. The bottom line is that you seem to fail to recognize them where they truly originate : your personal fiction.
Sittting bring us back to the point where we cleary measure the extent of our own delusion. Rather than taking the dalai lama apart, shall we start to do the job on this fiction called the self?
The best way to learn is from the mistake of others? Are you kidding? nobody can. The best way to learn is to study the self and forget the self.

All the best and thank you again

gassho

Taigu

**Jundo** · 09-22-2009, 12:51 PM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

I am reposting here what I wrote above:

NOTE FROM JUNDO: KEVIN, I AM GOING TO STEP IN HERE (ONE OF THE FEW TIMES I EVER HAVE). I BELIEVE THE VIDEOS OVERSTEP A LINE OF INTOLERANCE ... EVEN THOUGH THE THEME IS OPPOSING INTOLERANCE. THE LANGUAGE IS TOO STRONG, SOME OF IT MEAN, AND THE CONCLUSIONS NOT OPEN MINDED TO OTHERS' RIGHT TO THEIR RELIGION (Especially Part 1). I AM GOING TO LEAVE THEM POSTED HERE (FOR NOW), BUT MORE AS EXAMPLES OF WHAT FAIR CRITICISM SHOULD NOT BE. I DO NOT THINK THEY SPEAK WELL FOR THE POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE.

Kevin, really study what Taigu is saying above. And, as you know, this is coming from a fellow (me) who is also a critic of much of what goes on at E-Sangha. Your "Part 2" is actually a pretty accurate description of the trouble and intolerant policies at E-Sangha, but "Part 1" is over the top.

Gassho, Jundo

**Kevin Solway** · 09-22-2009, 01:11 PM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

I respect your response Jundo. I was certainly pushing the limits.

Yet, sometimes, things are so bad, that one must describe things in no uncertain terms.

But that's easy for me to say, since I am essentially a non-denominational Buddhist.

**chicanobudista** · 09-22-2009, 02:15 PM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Originally posted by Tobiishi

Gassho...

Kevin, what is your intention in posting these videos? I don't see how their content contributes to this Sangha at all. Vitrol is rarely beneficial, in my opinion.

gassho,
tobiishi

I have to agree with Tobiishi. I do see where you are coming from, Kevin, but it's the vitrolic or snarky humor that really puts me off. I too was uncertain of what your intentions were since you also posted them in ZFI (though I can't find it there) w/o any comment. I am not piling on you, but just to let you know that folks may agree with you on facts, but language and presentation does affect them.

**will** · 09-23-2009, 02:31 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

A poem:

Thinking, thinking,thinking.
Always thinking.
Never sitting.
Never still.

A footnote: Whether your right or wrong. Be nice if you can. Don't spread confusion, and help out here and there. It is all about "you".

I agree there are more...what... tolerant ways to do stuff. Your practice should teach you that. Be aware of your audience and how balanced you are right now. So you can tell what the hell you are doing. Oh, I've gotta post this or make this. Ok. Fine. But maybe you could sit for a bit and weigh the pros and cons.

It's all up to you really.

I have no problems with your video. I didn't even watch it, and I'm not going to. I don't really care that much.

Have fun.

Gassho

W

**Keishin** · 09-23-2009, 04:18 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Hello Kevin and to others posting here

I wish there were a way to put 'fun' into fundamentalism. I wouldn't be calling out any one particular fundamentalist specifically, my own preference is to look at the whole of fundamentalism. It answers some kind of need or it wouldn't have come into existence, nor would it continue to exist.
What is that need?

Same holds true for persons by way of circumstance or choice or combination who are called upon to give up a private life and become a public figure, a political or famous figure, let alone a spiritual leader. They are fulfilling a need.

I can't see any benefit which could possibly outweigh giving up a life of coming and going quietly, doing simple things without fanfare and flashbulbs or microphones. But people do make considerable sacrifices.
As far as 'proof' as evidenced by film clips go:
It's just too easy to take bits of footage or quotations and present them out of context.
Heaven forbid anyone make a collage of things I've said!!

With the burdens placed upon him, I think he has done extraordinarily well.
As far as the folks posting the names/pictures/addresses of others...
sure, something is afoot
just who, what, I don't know
You know during the Viet Nam war many peace activist groups were infiltrated by CIA/undercover police and interestingly enough it turned out it was more likely the 'infiltrators' who tried to steer the groups toward making use of violence in their actions...
Things are not always what they seem.
Things are not always the way we think they seem.

You Tube is full of all kinds of things; I prefer the categories of silly and funny. My work is too serious!

I was invited by a neighbor to come hear the Dalai Lama speak next week. I heard him about 30 years ago, and haven't felt the need to hear him again. Same with a lot of speakers, once is enough. This neighbor found out I was a buddhist and immediately thought Dali Lama! She also has been to Tassajara and thinks that's fantastic too... (I have quite a lot of opinions about Tassajara--don't even get me started!) So I am still getting to know this neighbor who is trying to connect with me in ways she thinks there are already affinities.
I appreciate this, but my practice doesn't fit the mold. We will probably find far more connections if we steer clear of buddhism with each other!
We shall see.

**Kevin Solway** · 09-23-2009, 01:42 PM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Originally posted by Keishin

What is that need?

The need for fundamentalism is the need to buttress a delusion before it collapses in a heap.

With the burdens placed upon him, I think he has done extraordinarily well.

Well, he could certainly have done worse. I'll agree with you that far.

But I really don't think he's done at all well on the realization side of things, including the realization that literal rebirth is a fantasy, and what the teaching of rebirth is really all about. And that fault is just the tip of the iceberg.

But I'm not blaming him at all. He's only a product of his environment, as we all are. It's not as though he would have been brought up to think for himself. It's a miracle he thinks as much as he does.

**disastermouse** · 09-23-2009, 06:43 PM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Originally posted by Kevin Solway

Originally posted by Keishin

What is that need?

The need for fundamentalism is the need to buttress a delusion before it collapses in a heap.

With the burdens placed upon him, I think he has done extraordinarily well.

Well, he could certainly have done worse. I'll agree with you that far.

But I really don't think he's done at all well on the realization side of things, including the realization that literal rebirth is a fantasy, and what the teaching of rebirth is really all about. And that fault is just the tip of the iceberg.

But I'm not blaming him at all. He's only a product of his environment, as we all are. It's not as though he would have been brought up to think for himself. It's a miracle he thinks as much as he does.

Maybe the lesson in this is for all of us to examine how our own cultural and personal dogmas blind us.

Personally, some Tibetan teachers have helped me in their writings. Heck, I'm reading 'No Self, No Problem' by Anam Thubten right now. I usually don't read much TibBud stuff anymore, but this book jumped out at me and it seems to be the perfect message at the perfect time.

E-Sangha drives me bonkers though - it's like an armed fortress of stupidity. But anyone here already knows that.

Chet

**Shonin** · 09-24-2009, 01:10 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Chet, Well I know that now. LOL.Never been there myself. ( E-Sangha)

Kevin, I think literal or metaphorical reincarnation is something one has to determine for themselves. As well as how important a past life really is, personally i thnk they are so far gone it's irrelevant to anything. I live here and now, my karma is here with me. So I work here and now.

I don't think those who believe in reincarnation are idiots ( especially since I do believe and have 131 IQ thanx). Maybe it is a lack of realization. Perhaps those who say it is lack realization themselves? Who can say. And yes, in many cultures rebirth can have more than the literal reincarnation meaning. Even in Zen I have seen certain ancient Zen practitioners make statements about being a fox ( 500 years I think) or how they are going to be reincarnated as an Ox.

Also certain faiths outside of buddhism hold serious views in regards to literal reincarnation. so perhaps a bit of respect for them too?

But that's just me and i honestly couldn't say or care to guess how much or little realization I possess as a dualistic Ego-equipped new kid.

Dave _/_

**Kevin Solway** · 09-24-2009, 01:57 AM

Re: Personality cults and fundamentalism

Originally posted by ZenDave

I don't think those who believe in reincarnation are idiots ( especially since I do believe and have 131 IQ thanx).

Unfortunately having a high IQ rarely translates into wisdom, and often facilitates madness. People of low IQ and little imagination aren't intelligent enough to be terribly delusional.

And yes, in many cultures rebirth can have more than the literal reincarnation meaning. Even in Zen I have seen certain ancient Zen practitioners make statements about being a fox ( 500 years I think) or how they are going to be reincarnated as an Ox.

I support the non-literal interpretation as a means of talking about causes and consequences.

Of course, even this "non-literal" interpretation is "literal" in a sense. It's literal in a sensible way.

It is clear what kind of reincarnation the Dalai Lama believes in, and I hold that those who are unsure about what he believes in this regard are in a state of denial.

Also certain faiths outside of buddhism hold serious views in regards to literal reincarnation. so perhaps a bit of respect for them too?

I find this "respect" idea very vague.

I respect the devil himself, but I'm still going to tell the truth about him.

Not that the Dalai Lama is a devil. He's more of a pup.

Personality cults and fundamentalism

Personality cults and fundamentalism

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