Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

[Taigu]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hi Shohei,

Yes, the robe that Nishijima roshi uses on the vid is the regular kesa which is sold in monk shops and is the only one allowed by the Sotoshu. In major temples klike Eiheiji or Sojiji the nyohoe robe is forbiden. It is only sewn these days by a few monks who are rebels and follow the teachings of Sawaki Kodo and Hashimoto and by lay people who organize fukudenkai, sewing groups and sit together. The way to put a nyohoe on is different too. I am going to record a vid soon so everybody will be shown how to do it properly.

Hi Shinmeidokujoh, Welcome!!!yes, the blue colour is great, one of the tips I sometimes give people is to pick up a dark blue or get a purple fabric and dye it blue and then playing with the way the fabric is woven, you may alternate patches so even if the kesa is in the same colour and fabric, because the fabric cathches the light in a different way, you get the impression to have a patchwork of different shades of blue. This works really well with fine cotton fabric. The other way is like Halifax roshi to collect various fabrics of different colours and patterns and dye them in a singledark blue or green. You end up again with something very patchwork-like. Now, many nyohoe priest like to sew a kesa which is a combination of dark blue and deep green, using the green as narrow vertical and horizontal stripes applied on a huge rectangle of blue fabric to form the body of the nyohoe...But this sort of kesa is for teachers.

gassho

Taigu

[ShinMeiDokuJoh]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Dear Taigu,

thanks a lot for your great information.

...Now, many nyohoe priest like to sew a kesa which is a combination of dark blue and deep green, using the green as narrow vertical and horizontal stripes applied on a huge rectangle of blue fabric to form the body of the nyohoe...But this sort of kesa is for teachers.
gassho
Taigu

Thanks for the warning, I just wanted to rush out to get dark blue and deep green cloth for my next o-Kesa project

In some other threads I read about recommendable colours for sewing the o-Kesa. Are there other colour combinations
which are only allowed for teachers or higher ranking monks and/or priests?

Do you know of monasterys or temples in Japan which are affiliated to Noyohoe tradition?

With best regards
ShinMeiDokuJoh

[Taigu]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hi Shinmeidokujo,

The whole issue is that one should not really mind too much about colour and stuff. The best way forward is to collect fabric, dye it in a dark shade and put it together.

If you stick to the official Japanese style, the lighter the higher.

Simplicity is best.


gassho


Taigu

[Shohei]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hiyas
Just a bit of something to share:

You also may get the book of Tomoe Katagiri, the wife of the late Katagiri roshi: Study of the Okesa, Nyoho-e, Buddha's robe published by Minnesota Zen Meditation Center in Minneapolis. It is a great book following Hashimoto Roshi's instructions ( a bit different from Sawaki Kodo). I shall stick to Sawaki's original teachings and measurements as explained on my blog but please, feel free to go for Hashimoto Roshi's method, particularly if you get hold of the book and relate well to written instructions. The book is also very precious for it has detailed drawings about stitches, how to fold the corners and so forth...

http://www.mnzencenter.org/tomoe_sewing_book.php

This very book is now available online (with a suggested donation payable via paypal). When i wrote and asked for a copy and offered a donation they said they would be doing this soon and I want to say its priceless so putting a 10 dollar suggested donation on it is very cheap indeed

Gassho
Shohei

[Jinyu]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

WOW! Thanks Shohei for this very good news!
But I've got a question, what are the main differences with Sawaki roshi way to sew the kesa?

edit: Well, I mean, I know sizes are a bit different? but, I just took a quick look to the measurements and I didn't see the differences. Is one bigger than another or something like that?

Anyway, thank you again Shohei!

Gassho,
Luis/Jinyu

[Shohei]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hi Luis
Besides the inches/cm/mm differences... I noticed there is a difference in the formula for calculating the size. Close but different. The diagrams are nice references to illustrate methods as stated but the measurements are used ever so slightly different.

I have an example somewheres Ill see if i can dig it up.

Gassho
Shohei

[Jinyu]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Thanks sohei!
I just didn't see your answer with all that happened these days... :?
It's true I didn't really know the measurements for the kesa, but when I look to the rakusu's measurements in cm... I really can't find a difference... but I confess I make a LOT of mistakes in my daily life because I don't see details or small differences :roll: I'm capable to try to sew a seven stripe kesa with the measurements of the sho-san-e (it is so tiny it must be tricky to sew).

Thank you anyway!
Gassho,
Luis/Jinyu

[DharmaDemon]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

All,

I have a question about both rakusu and okesa. I intend to study to take jukai with the next available class if it is possible to do so, and as such, I have begun my "rag hunt" to find sewing materials. We have an old comforter here at the apartment. It is one that I have had a very long time, and it is dark, dark green on one side, with a lighter green printed with dragons on the other. It's currently on the bed, but is about to come apart at the seams, and instead of throwing it out, I wonder if it would be good to repurpose the fabric for rakusu and, possibly, okesa. I have actually used it as a wrap when sitting in colder weather before, and it's one of a few possessions I've dragged around everywhere I've lived most of my adult life since I got it. Seems like being "reborn" this way would be a good fate for it. Thoughts?

[Tb]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

All,

I have a question about both rakusu and okesa. I intend to study to take jukai with the next available class if it is possible to do so, and as such, I have begun my "rag hunt" to find sewing materials. We have an old comforter here at the apartment. It is one that I have had a very long time, and it is dark, dark green on one side, with a lighter green printed with dragons on the other. It's currently on the bed, but is about to come apart at the seams, and instead of throwing it out, I wonder if it would be good to repurpose the fabric for rakusu and, possibly, okesa. I have actually used it as a wrap when sitting in colder weather before, and it's one of a few possessions I've dragged around everywhere I've lived most of my adult life since I got it. Seems like being "reborn" this way would be a good fate for it. Thoughts?

Hi.

Sounds good.
One thing though, unless the dragons are "small" they'll almost certainly be chopped off at places doing the rakusu...
Maybe even at doing the kesa.
just so you know, and are prepared for it.
And what fabric is it?
But for scraps it's looking good.
Actually i think shohei is up to much the same project.
As he and Taigu are the tailors of this place, pm him and see if he can give you any pointers...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Taigu]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hi Lisa,

Good rags. Sounds great. But remember...because it is old, you might have to mend it, the fabric can be more fragile. I often advise people to go for brown new material rather than rags... for that reason. Rags are rags because you see them as rags. The romanatic quest for best rags, why not? Anyway, I like the fact that it is an old friend of yours... I would like to make more than a suggestion: you should dye the fabric in a mute and dark shade. Not use it as such. I mean it. It is what we do in our tradition.


Take care and thank you for starting a kesa


gassho


taigu

[DharmaDemon]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Rev. Taigu and others, thanks for your feedback.

When you say not to "use it as such," does that mean not to use it as it is, with any designs that are on it? I have the intention of using the fabric that's just green, as opposed to the parts with designs, so should I still dye it regardless?

[Dosho]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hey Lisa,

I believe Taigu was referring to the designs when he mentioned dyeing the material, but using a dye on any material would be traditional. I would say that as long as all the material is the same color dyeing is not a must since the kesa I am working on is all of new material and I did not dye it. Taigu has often suggested that we make our first rakusu/kesa with new material so it is easier to work with while we learn how to sew, but I would think that less impoart if you have sewing experience (I had none whatsoever).

I am too working on a kesa so I may be of some help (mostly in what I have found NOT to do), but Taigu and Shohei are very good teachers...but both of them would probably say that we are all beginners and that is most definitely true.

Good luck on your project and please offer me some as well as I always need some good luck.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Shohei]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hiya Lisa
On the rags front it certainly is more difficult to work with, due to inconsistencies in the material and its fragility(for the rakusu or kesa).
Im posting my reply with thinking more of the idea of using it later for a kesa.

If it were an old comforter in its previous life (and well loved), then in its new life as a square supporting other squares may not hold up all the others weight and wear and tear as a robe. To that respect, my first kesa is made of blue bedsheets and leftover new brown material from my rakusu the blue is not as sturdy and is woven looser...result is its fragile. But what isn't I wear it almost all the time when I sit and have had to do some repairs already.

Also, though we do not discriminate between rags and new, fine rags and less than fine rags- the old worn stuff is still going to fall apart fast despite any philosophy about rags and is tougher to work with esp. for a first trip through in sewing your kesa! Besides we are already wrapped up in the kesa long before we sew it! Whether they are made up of no-rags, holy rags, wholly rags or holes in rags :shock: !

Another thought that popped up, if you want to use this comforter, how about dying it and using it for say the anchors (though supporting pieces they have a lot of stitches backing them up), or bottom cho and tan bits and/or joro? they are an important bits but not too hard to mend if need be and are not as likely to get as much pull on them like the other panels/ties etc.

Just some thoughts from a guy that should have slept and then posted

No matter what you do you have folks here to lend a hand as needed!

Gassho
Shohei

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hello Taigu and everyone!
I have just joined Treeleaf! I have been sitting for about 10 years and have taken the precepts in the lineage of Suzuki Roshi. However, there is no zendo near where I live in Ireland. So, I think what you are doing in Treeleaf is great.

I see that you were planning to start an Okesa project. Have you started? I would like your permission to join in and sew an Okesa, if that is ok. Did you make videos to follow on YouTube? I saw your films on sewing the Rakusu. They were great. A great and unselfish gift to all who practice.

With respect and deep bows,
Ian in Ireland
(Soen Doshin)

[Shohei]

Re: Kesa OKESA, it is about time!

Hi Soen!
I may be out of line in saying so before Taigu or Jundo respond, but if you have received Jukai and have the experience of having sewn a rakusu (the only requirement stated at the start of this thread really) then I couldn't ponder any issue with sewing a kesa! To quote a good friend... Its good practice

Welcome again!
Gassho
Shohei