Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[Bion]

Hi Kyoshin,

I am just curious if you meant that the evidence I presented was the gymnastics? Or his response to the evidence?

Granted, there was nobody in the 6th Century who said in clear words, "What I am about to teach is exactly what will be taught by someone in the future named Dogen 600 years from now." There are only hints and traces.

Gassho, J

STLah

It’s interesting how many critics fail to consider the context of certain things. Like ignoring the fact that the ancient masters made references to a variety of sutras, clearly assuming their audience (other monks and monastics) were familiar with what they were talking about. Yet they didn’t focus on writing about sutras and chanting. It was clearly part of their daily routine and practice and there was no need in their time and at that moment to address that particular topic. Same goes for the zazen topic. Every single master speaks of zazen in one form or another although the way they address the issue is based on the needs of their monastic communities, thus they were sometimes criticizing those who became overly attached to their zafus and zazen to the point where it became a tool and lacked any substance or sincerity. I believe it was Foyan who spent quite some time criticizing those stuck cross-legged, insisting on the need to attain understanding, on letting go of concepts and judgments, on having faith and trust in the dharma, yet he ends with a chapter dedicated to zazen, detailing how it it to be done and saying: “if you meditate, why not sit and if you sit, why not meditate?”
Only those who choose it can’t see the place zazen has had in Buddhist practice and especially Zen.

So sorry about the extra long reply. I’ll behave from now! [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Kyoshin]

Hi Kyoshin,

I am just curious if you meant that the evidence I presented was the gymnastics? Or his response to the evidence?

Granted, there was nobody in the 6th Century who said in clear words, "What I am about to teach is exactly what will be taught by someone in the future named Dogen 600 years from now." There are only hints and traces.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry for the confusion. I meant that AJ appeared to be doing gymnastics in order to find reasons to be dissatisfied with your answers.
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Another small sign of the "roots" of Shikantaza is in the Xin Xin Ming (Inscription on Trust in Mind), a classic chant of the Soto school traditionally attributed to the 3rd Ancestor in Chiina, Sengcan. In fact, it is probably not by Sengcan, but scholars still believe that it is from early on in the Tang Dynasty, maybe 7th-8th century C.E. It has been celebrated in the Zen Lineages for over 1000 years. It certainly expresses the equanimity, non-choosing, neither running toward and entangling with the world nor running away that Master Dogen conveys in Fukanzazengi ...

In Fukanzazengi, he writes:

FUNDAMENTALLY SPEAKING, the basis of the way is perfectly pervasive ... The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally
unrestricted ... Surely the whole being is far beyond defilement ... And yet, if a hair's breadth of distinction exists, the gap is like that between heaven and earth; once the slightest like or dislike arises, all is confused and the mind is lost. ... Cast aside all involvements and discontinue all affairs. Do not think of good or evil; do not deal with right or wrong. Halt the revolutions of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop the calculations of thoughts, ideas, and perceptions. Do not intend to make a Buddha, much less be attached to sitting still

Some of those lines are from the Xin Xin Ming directly ...

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love [likes] and hate [dislikes] are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make a hairbreadth difference, and Heaven and Earth are set apart;

...

If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.

...

The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.
Be serene in the Oneness [wholeness] of things
and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.

...

When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other,
you will never know [Wholeness].

...

To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality;
to assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.

...

The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.

...

Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.

...

When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend,
and when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.

...

When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes,
and when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.

Things are objects because there is a subject or mind;
and the mind is a subject because there are objects.
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.
In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world.

...

Clinging cannot be limited;
even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment
is to go astray.
Just let things be in their own way
and there will be neither coming nor going.

...

The burdensome practice of judging
brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefit can be derived
from distinctions and separations?

...

If you wish to move in the One Way
do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to accept them fully
is identical with true Enlightenment.

...

The wise man strives to no goals
but the foolish man fetters himself.

...

Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams of flowers in air:
foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong;
such thoughts must finally be abolished at once.

...

If the mind makes no discriminations,
the ten thousand things
are as they are, of single essence.

...

To understand the mystery of this One-essence
is to be released from all entanglements.

...

Consider motion in stillness
and stillness in motion;
both movement and stillness disappear.
When such dualities cease to exist
Oneness itself cannot exist.
To this ultimate finality
no law or description applies.

For the unified mind in accord with the Way
all self-centered striving ceases.
Doubts and irresolutions vanish
and life in true faith is possible.

...

nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating,
with no exertion of the mind's power.
Here thought, feeling, knowledge, and imagination are of no value.
In this world of Suchness
there is neither self nor other-than-self.

...

To come directly into harmony with this reality
just simply say when doubt arises, "Not two."
In this "not two" nothing is separate,
nothing is excluded.
No matter when or where,
enlightenment means entering this truth.
And this truth is beyond extension or diminution in time or space;
in it a single thought is ten thousand years.

...

Emptiness here, Emptiness there,
but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes.

Infinitely large and infinitely small;
no difference, for definitions have vanished
and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being.
Waste no time in doubts and arguments
that have nothing to do with this.

...

One thing, all things;
move among and intermingle,
without distinction.
To live in this realization
is to be without anxiety about nonperfection.
To live in this faith is the road to nonduality,
because the nondual is one with the trusting mind.

...

Words!
The Way is beyond language,
for in it there is

no yesterday

no tomorrow

no today.

https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html

Now, if that is not precisely the attitude of sitting in the equanimity of Shikantaza, neither running from the world nor toward it, non-gaining, not discriminating, free of opinions, without aversions [dislikes] and attractions [likes], dropping thoughts, the self/other divide softening or dropping away, nothing felt lacking or in excess, timeless amid time ...

I wish Andrew were still here, I would have loved (beyond loves and hates and all debates, of course! ) to hear is impression. Could he doubt that the heart of Just Sitting is not here?

(Sorry, ran a bit long).

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onka]

COMMENT DELETED

Commented deleted for harsh language. We did have complaints, and I concur that it was not appropriate here.

Gassho, Jundo

[Risho]

COMMENT DELETED

I wholeheartedly agree and couldn’t have worded this any better, so worth the extra sentences imho

thank you

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

COMMENT DELETED

There are plenty of good books on the history of Ch'an and Zen, including The Circle of the Way by Barbara O'Brien.

Historical differences between schools serve to illustrate points of practice, and different approaches. Were it not for Dogen's differences with other schools, we might not have Shikantaza and Soto Zen at all and the differences between Rinzai and Soto Zen continue to this day, even as they point to the same thing.

Also, please Onka, it would have been super easy to make your point with less harsh language. There was absolutely no need for the B words.

Apologies for use of more than three sentences.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Onka]

There are plenty of good books on the history of Ch'an and Zen, including The Circle of the Way by Barbara O'Brien.

Historical differences between schools serve to illustrate points of practice, and different approaches. Were it not for Dogen's differences with other schools, we might not have Shikantaza and Soto Zen at all and the differences between Rinzai and Soto Zen continue to this day, even as they point to the same thing.

Also, please Onka, it would have been super easy to make your point with less harsh language. There was absolutely no need for the B words.

Apologies for use of more than three sentences.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

For those playing at home the B word is a working class word for nonsense which is how I was using it, as well as testicles but there are nuances within English working class language that would require a Noam Chomsky lecture to grasp. To working class folk like me the B word is in no way harsh language (my Grandfather was Cockney but Cockney rhyming slang is a whole other beast lol) but hey ho. The historical stuff I was talking about was the BW vs JC stuff that a cursory Google search reveals all kinds of things.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Kokuu]

For those playing at home the B word is a working class word for nonsense which is how I was using it, as well as testicles but there are nuances within English working class language that would require a Noam Chomsky lecture to grasp. To working class folk like me the B word is in no way harsh language (my Grandfather was Cockney but Cockney rhyming slang is a whole other beast lol) but hey ho.

It is a word for nonsense here too but harsh language. I really don't think we need Chomsky or a lecture on working class language but rather a bit of common sense of what is appropriate. If you mean nonsense, say nonsense. Everyone else here seems to manage, regardless of their background.


It is also very bad form to talk about a teacher like this:

IMHO BW has some blind spots just as Jundo does.

Since we are studying the precepts again, you may wish to pay attention to #6:

Not to broadcast the misdeeds or faults of the Buddhist assembly, nor encourage others to do so.

You are not a newbie anymore. We really need more respect and deference and less of the working class anarchist. Deference is not something that comes easily to many of us but is appropriate here and part of training and dropping ego.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

DELETED

Commented deleted for harsh language. We did have complaints, and I concur that it was not appropriate here.

Gassho, Jundo

[Inshin]

Another small sign of the "roots" of Shikantaza is in the Xin Xin Ming (Inscription on Trust in Mind), a classic chant of the Soto school traditionally attributed to the 3rd Ancestor in Chiina, Sengcan. In fact, it is probably not by Sengcan, but scholars still believe that it is from early on in the Tang Dynasty, maybe 7th-8th century C.E. It has been celebrated in the Zen Lineages for over 1000 years. It certainly expresses the equanimity, non-choosing, neither running toward and entangling with the world nor running away that Master Dogen conveys in Fukanzazengi ...

In Fukanzazengi, he writes:



Some of those lines are from the Xin Xin Ming directly ...



Now, if that is not precisely the attitude of sitting in the equanimity of Shikantaza, neither running from the world nor toward it, non-gaining, not discriminating, free of opinions, without aversions [dislikes] and attractions [likes], dropping thoughts, the self/other divide softening or dropping away, nothing felt lacking or in excess, timeless amid time ...

I wish Andrew were still here, I would have loved (beyond loves and hates and all debates, of course! ) to hear is impression. Could he doubt that the heart of Just Sitting is not here?

(Sorry, ran a bit long).

Gassho, J

STLah

"Consider motion in stillness
and stillness in motion;
both movement and stillness disappear." - Shikantanza
It's impossible to give an apple and describe its taste to someone who doesn't want to taste it.

Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

I'm sorry, but this comment just doesn't sit right with me. Delete the b-word, sure. But if you had a problem with Onka saying Jundo has blind spots, why not say it in the first place, as you should have? Did you get annoyed at her attempt to explain her use of the b-word, and then decide to look for further reasons for public chastisement? I ask because it very much looks like that's what happened, and I find that troubling in the extreme.

I can't imagine that any offense or disrespect was intended by saying that Jundo has blind spots. An innocuous utterance, it seems to me. It's true of everyone, and in context it made sense to say, as she was essentially noting that nobody is perfect, least of all herself. Im flabbergasted that that particular statement warrants chastisement at all, much less a public one.

Apologies for the long post but I'm shocked and perturbed by this turn of events.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah


Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

In the last two days I started to understand the meaning of Sangha as a practice. Very valuable lessons since yesterday from all of you.

Gassho
Sat

[Onka]

I'm sorry, but this comment just doesn't sit right with me. Delete the b-word, sure. But if you had a problem with Onka saying Jundo has blind spots, why not say it in the first place, as you should have? Did you get annoyed at her attempt to explain her use of the b-word, and then decide to look for further reasons for public chastisement? I ask because it very much looks like that's what happened, and I find that troubling in the extreme.

I can't imagine that any offense or disrespect was intended by saying that Jundo has blind spots. An innocuous utterance, it seems to me. It's true of everyone, and in context it made sense to say, as she was essentially noting that nobody is perfect, least of all herself. Im flabbergasted that that particular statement warrants chastisement at all, much less a public one.

Apologies for the long post but I'm shocked and perturbed by this turn of events.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah


Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

Thanks Kyoshin but it's all good. As you know language is powerful as well as often loaded. Another discussion for after Ango might be about what role Class has on Buddhism in the West, that and why Buddhism in the West is so white.
Chopping wood, carrying water for me this Ango.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

[Bion]

I am mildly surprised by the turn this conversation has taken and by the bickering happening.

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Ryumon]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

Oh my, what has been going on here? Newbie troll, it looks like.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Ryumon]

I just sent a message to Jundo this morning explaining exactly the same story. Some people on the zen reddit subforum are trying to prove that Dogen never went to China, was never given Dharma transmission by Rujing and that Shikantaza is the same as "prayer-meditation". Which is funny, because there are actual scientific studies proving the benefits of zazen. Before joining TreeLeaf I read their threads for some months, but the people are incredibly toxic to each other and everyone is trying to play zen master. And some members are clearly trying to create a cult around only reading early zen masters. Plus, they also claim that zen is not connected to Buddhism in the first place...

I don't think that we need scientific studies that prove the benefits of zazen. These studies are looking at physical and mental changes, which may arise with any meditative practice, but that's not the goal of shikantaza.

Taking seriously any conspiracy theory on Reddit is a path to disaster. There are people there who have nothing better to do than to argue with others.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat