Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[Bion]

One more point on one of Andrew's questions ...



There happen to be some early Taoist and Confucian meditation forms which may smack of Silent Illumination and Shikantaza too. I have not seen anyone connect them directly to Zazen, but there was much Taoist-Confucian-Buddhist interchange in those early centuries. It may simply indicate that seekers in various traditions just sometimes do things in similar ways. Details are also elusive, but one is called Jing zuo (靜坐), or "quiet sitting." I am not expert, but here are a few pages that describe it a bit:

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=rPONDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT241&lpg=PT241&dq=Jing+zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90+sitting&source=bl&ots=aWXGyYyBoh&sig=ACfU3U3ZIYJ3XFmtFvThmxMT2Lym1gkLfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhyKyAxOPrAhXDAYgKHaknCZA4ChDoATACegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=Jing%20zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90%20sitting&f=false

Gassho, J

STLah

People like Andrew have an issue with understanding the practice of Zen because they are ignorant about the nature of the teachings and the origin of it all.

Seeking to prove or disprove Zen practice while not being engaged in ANY kind of practice, but merely studying it from an academic perspective, is a futile thing. I’ve seen and dealt with people with the same attitude, who were ready to bite anyone’s head off when it came to defending there was NOTHING to do in Zen, yet they had never sat zazen, never chanted a sutra, never had a proper conversation with someone where they actually listened instead of argue.

The practice of Buddhism and Zen is something that stems from the universal truth of the dharma. Three thousand people scattered around the world unaware of each other can reach the exact same understanding and have the same realizations IF they truly practice the Buddha way even if unaware of it.

No one taught Sidharta how to sit zazen or how to attain enlightenment. He did it on his own like countless Buddhas before him, because it is a natural thing and ingrained in us.

Sorry about the extra sentences. I just wanted to make these few comment because for weeks now I’ve witnessed the attitude coming from AJ and I’ve avoided replying on purpose.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Inshin]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.
Gassho
Sat

[Doshin]

Much said while I slept. Much learned with my first cup of coffee. Also learned a new word “erudite” so thank you Ania and Google.

Doshin
St

[Kokuu]

Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.

Ah, I like Brad. I don't agree with everything he says but he has shown a long and genuine commitment to Zen and practice.

As well as more traditional teachers, we need those who have a willingness to take a different tack and I imagine Brad has brought a distinct group of people to Soto that might not have come by other routes.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kyoshin]

I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Kyoshin]

Ah, I like Brad. I don't agree with everything he says but he has shown a long and genuine commitment to Zen and practice.

As well as more traditional teachers, we need those who have a willingness to take a different tack and I imagine Brad has brought a distinct group of people to Soto that might not have come by other routes.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

I will also jump to Brad's defense. I don't always agree with him, but then I don't always agree with Jundo either. [emoji2369] For all his faults, I think Brad is a dedicated practitioner and fills an important niche with his books; very few zen authors manage to write books that are so substantive while also unpretentious and approachably easy to read.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah.

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[nknibbs]

I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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Nick
SatLah

[Juki]

Wowsers. Dharma combat.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[Bion]

I was actually very much appreciating reading Jundo's answers to all those questions. Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them. Nine bows to A.J. for asking questions I wouldn't have thought of, and nine bows to Jundo for being far more patient than I would have.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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AJ’s questions come right out of the Zen sub on Reddit. It’s the same questions posed there for years now and exactly the same refusal to accept any answer, because the questions are not posed with the purpose of being answered.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Jundo]

Brad Warner strikes me as someone who would burn in one of the hells described by Hakuin in Wild Ivy.
Gassho
Sat

Gentle speech, nobody to hell. Brad is a good fellow. But some of the Dharma punk folks around his blog back in the day ... my first lesson in the hells of the internet!

Gassho, J

STlah

[Jundo]

AJ’s questions come right out of the Zen sub on Reddit. It’s the same questions posed there for years now and exactly the same refusal to accept any answer, because the questions are not posed with the purpose of being answered.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Yes, I have encountered that place before. Tomas, if you see this, would you mind recounting the story about Professor Bielefeldt? It is very interesting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Bion]

Yes, I have encountered that place before. Tomas, if you see this, would you mind recounting the story about Professor Bielefeldt? It is very interesting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Wait .. didn’t he write a book about Dogen? I know a story about him too. [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Kyoshin]

AJ’s questions come right out of the Zen sub on Reddit. It’s the same questions posed there for years now and exactly the same refusal to accept any answer, because the questions are not posed with the purpose of being answered.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

The zen sub on Reddit is a dumpster fire I go out of my way to avoid.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Bion]

The zen sub on Reddit is a dumpster fire I go out of my way to avoid.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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Those are my EXACT WORDS! [emoji1787] [emoji1787]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Kyoshin]

Gentle speech, nobody to hell. Brad is a good fellow. But some of the Dharma punk folks around his blog back in the day ... my first lesson in the hells of the internet!

Gassho, J

STlah

I thought the Dharma Punks were Noah Levine's group before his fall from grace? Brad wasn't ever associated with them, was he?

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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