Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[A.J.]

Is your point to find out "proof" that meditation is not needed for Enlightenment? When reading about Zen and it's old masters I found that all of them meditated (and a lot) though is seems like only Dogen described Shikantanza in such detail. The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.

Gassho
Sat

No. I'm not interested in finding proof of anything. I'm simply thinking about the development of Zen as a tradition.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

No. I'm not interested in finding proof of anything. I'm simply thinking about the development of Zen as a tradition.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

But you are wrong, and I showed you such quotes. What is more "Shikantaza" than this from the Dunhuang Platform Sutra (Two copies dated to between 830 and 860):



In equanimity, peacefully and calm, beyond motion or stillness, dropping thought of birth and death, no coming or going, free of judgments of right or wrong.

And then we have the Shikantaza-like attitude of "non-attaining" from Linji and others.



The above can sound antinomian, as if he were rejecting meditation ... but there is ample evidence that they were meditating in the monastery. So, if they were meditating ... and he was teaching "nothing to gain" ... he seems to have been teaching meditation and all practice with a "nothing to gain" attitude.

When he did criticize meditation, it was to stifle all thoughts (not letting thoughts rise) or to attain special states:



The record of the past is pretty sketchy (gee, we are looking at scraps of text more than 1000 years old!), but it seems clear that (1) the old dudes generally meditated and (2) "non-seeking" was a very common teaching even back then.

Gassho, J

STLah

It's a little weird to say I'm wrong considering that I'm not making a claim.
The emphasis on Zazen in Dogen in contrast to the early material is still striking though I appreciate your few quotes.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

You make assertions, but you don't offer much evidence or facts or supporting texts on your side beside your bare assertions. Put up or shut up ... and sit!

Gassho, J

STLah

Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.

[Jundo]

It's a little weird to say I'm wrong considering that I'm not making a claim.

What? What are you doing then? You are claiming that Dogen's Shikantaza has no like roots in the earlier tradition, and I showed you several famous quotes that preach "non-gaining" and a similar description of Zazen from the 9th century Platform Sutra.

The emphasis on Zazen in Dogen in contrast to the early material is still striking though I appreciate your few quotes.

You keep asserting some "contrast," but give no hint of what you mean.

And even if, for the devil's argument, Dogen invented Shikantaza wholly on his own with no earlier roots in Silent Illumination, that would still be a tradition of 800 years ... which is pretty good. That said, Dogen did not invent Shikantaza wholly on his own, and the roots to Hongzhi and the earlier Silent Illumination tradition are pretty clear, as historian John McRae describes in the first quote I put "How Zen Became Zen", p. 172-174):

The new Caodong tradition, then, seems to have simply adopted the type of meditation already common in Chan and elevated its importance. What made the silent illumination teachings of the Caodong tradition distinctive, therefore, was not the meditation technique or even its doctrinal underpinnings but its sustained, exhuberant celebration of inherent enlightenment and its persistent stress on stillness and de-emphasis on enlightenment as a breakthrough experience. In this way, the Caodong tradition did make meditation an end in itself: as long as meditation was approached correctly, nothing else was really needed. Thus, the silent illumination practice of the new Caodong tradition really did differentiate it from the rest of Chan ... . Even though the new Caodong tradition's teaching style was seen as distinctive, it did not entail, as I have argued above, a radical departure from earlier meditation techniques ...

It is a good book, you should read it.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.

You are starting to seem like a bit of a troll yourself, no? You ask questions, and want textual evidence, and some was provided.

But you don't provide any textual evidence that Shikantaza has no roots in the early Chan tradition as you assert. If you have some, please provide it.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Seishin]

Just an observation on the last few posts.
1)Andrew do you not accept the various articles provided by Jundo as evidence that Shikantaza was being practiced long before Dogen?
2)If not can you provide evidence to the contrary to support this view?
3) Just sit.

Sat lah

Seishin

[A.J.]

You are starting to seem like a bit of a troll yourself, no? You ask questions, and want textual evidence, and some was provided.

But you don't provide any textual evidence that Shikantaza has no roots in the early Chan tradition as you assert. If you have some, please provide it.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

[Tomás ESP]

I feel like A.J. already had an agenda when he started this thread. Unfortunate.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Seishin]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

And now the hidden agenda is revealed. Very disapointing. I will sit for Andrew and offer metta.

Sat lah

Seishin

[Kokuu]

Wow. That's actually a really bad attitude for a Zen priest... camouflaged as spirituality. That kind of approach definitely changes my view of your intentions with this forum.

On reading the stories of old masters, you will doubtless notice that Zen teachers often directly challenge other Zen folk. By the measure of those interactions, Jundo is a pussycat.

It looks to me like a gentle admonition that the intellectual stuff has run its course and it is time to sit.

The advice to go and wash your bowl as a practice is maybe necessary to help realise that Enlightenment is no different than ordinary life/samsara, weather you attain it on the cushion, cutting through a koan or stabbing your toe.

I also think 'clean your bowl' is a metaphor for approaching each moment fresh rather than with baggage of what has gone before.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Meitou]

I feel like A.J. already had an agenda when he started this thread. Unfortunate.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

I think he had one when he joined. I also offer Metta.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Inshin]

I listed considerations my question was based on but I did not make any claims about what the Zen tradition was in the early days for certain. The fact that you need to start with internet name-calling as a Zen priest demonstrates that you don't have room for discussion. No wonder you limit everyone to three sentences and then you go beyond that more than anyone. Between that and your tendency to shut people down you seem to have some kind of control problem. No wonder you started all that drama with the Hardcore Zen people a decade ago when Brad Warner wouldn't meet with you as you requested and then you made allegations that some other Zen priest punched you in the face. It's unfortunate that it's the people with the control issues who are motivated to get things like this going. I'm sure I'm not the first dissatisfied customer but your thread archives only go back as far as 2020. Good riddance. I won't be back.

Are you dealing with some sort of unresolved rejection? You seem very erudite and well read. Zen was never a soft way of cuddling the ego, if you'd approached an ancient "old geezer" Zen Master like you did, he would probably smack your head to shake all the knowledge out and make you feel it instead. What ware you seeking here?
Metta to you.
Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

And this is the world we live in, in which the art of civil discussion and substantiating claims with evidence is a lost art. Alas.

Please come back and sit with us any time.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - For point of disclosure, our archives here go back to 2006 and are fully searchable. You must have been doing something wrong. A priest who was having some personal issues gave me a shove, not a punch, when I made the mistake of trying to make peace among some people, but that was in 2010, now more than 10 years ago. I like to say that, if that is the only "scandal" that someone can come up with for my 20 years online ... that some of the angry "Dharma Punks" on Brad's old blog took after me, and someone gave me a shove at a meeting ... then I am doing pretty good.

[Jundo]

One more point on one of Andrew's questions ...

5. This early Chan material feels reminiscent of Taoist influence which could be a bit iconoclastic

There happen to be some early Taoist and Confucian meditation forms which may smack of Silent Illumination and Shikantaza too. I have not seen anyone connect them directly to Zazen, but there was much Taoist-Confucian-Buddhist interchange in those early centuries. It may simply indicate that seekers in various traditions just sometimes do things in similar ways. Details are also elusive, but one is called Jing zuo (靜坐), or "quiet sitting." I am not expert, but here are a few pages that describe it a bit:

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=rPONDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT241&lpg=PT241&dq=Jing+zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90+sitting&source=bl&ots=aWXGyYyBoh&sig=ACfU3U3ZIYJ3XFmtFvThmxMT2Lym1gkLfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhyKyAxOPrAhXDAYgKHaknCZA4ChDoATACegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=Jing%20zuo%E9%9D%9C%E5%9D%90%20sitting&f=false

Gassho, J

STLah