Did Dogen invent Shikantaza?

[gaurdianaq]

I will just say that I think we should be careful about making assumptions about what A.J's intentions are/were, it can start to sound like idle gossip. Perhaps he did come here with honest intentions, or perhaps he didn't. I've met lots of people who process the world/information in a very different way than I do and it can sound like they're trying to cause trouble from my perspective, but that doesn't necessarily mean what I think they're saying reflects reality.

That doesn't mean I agree with A.J's approach to these things either though, nor does it mean I agree with how he handled things in the end. But what A.J's words mean to him, and what they mean to us are not necessarily the same thing, and vice versa.

There is a quotation from "How to cook your life" that seems applicable here...

When we look at a cup that is set down between two of us, we have the feeling that we are looking at the same cup, though actually, that is not so. You look at the cup with your vision, and from a certain angle. Moreover, you see it in the rays of light and shadows that come from your side of the room. This applies equally to me as well. In a very rough sense, we proceed to separate the reality of the situation by entertaining the idea that we both see the same cup.

In this case replace the cup with the perceived meaning behind someone's words.

Apologies for going over.


Evan,
Sat today

[Seikan]

Wow.

I've followed all of these threads out of my own intellectual curiosity, but have avoided getting too caught up in the back and forth myself.

I sincerely hope that Andrew finds the peace of mind that is eluding him. Gassho2

Jundo, I am so appreciative of your patience with all of our questions and the intellectual "whack!" of your gentle, yet quite firm teaching stick.

Your responses to these threads have helped assure me that I've found the right Sangha to practice with.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

(Apologies for the extra sentences)

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Tairin]

Metta for Andrew. I personally found much of his discussion here tiresome but I acknowledge he was clearly seeking something. I hope that eventually he finds what he is looking for.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[gaurdianaq]

I'll also say this, because AJ asked so many questions, and because Jundo was so diligent in responding to them, I learned a lot of new things! So I'm very grateful for that!


Evan,
Sat today!

[Jundo]

I thought the Dharma Punks were Noah Levine's group before his fall from grace? Brad wasn't ever associated with them, was he?

Brad was also a punk rocker (actually, trivia fact, so was I for brief while ... and did my share of stage dives at Black Flag concerts back in the day). In the old days, before he settled down a bit, the atmosphere around Brad's old blog was quite, well, "raucous."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Wait .. didn’t he write a book about Dogen? I know a story about him too. [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Yes, more than one, he is one of the great "Dogenologists."

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/CarlBielefeldt.html

What is your story?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

Yes, more than one, he is one of the great "Dogenologists."

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/CarlBielefeldt.html

What is your story?

Gassho, J

STLah

There’s a dude that trolls on Reddit whose biggest defense in the crusade to prove that Dogen was a fraud and a cult leader is using some misunderstood and out of context Bielefeldt quotes. So one day another user emailed Bielefeldt, told him the story and asked if what he meant in his book was that Dogen stole Shobogenzo and that he made up a religion and that he was basically a fraud. Bielefeldt said far from him. He respects Dogen and considers his a great master and a genius.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Tomás ESP]

There’s a dude that trolls on Reddit whose biggest defense in the crusade to prove that Dogen was a fraud and a cult leader is using some misunderstood and out of context Bielefeldt quotes. So one day another user emailed Bielefeldt, told him the story and asked if what he meant in his book was that Dogen stole Shobogenzo and that he made up a religion and that he was basically a fraud. Bielefeldt said far from him. He respects Dogen and considers his a great master and a genius.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

I just sent a message to Jundo this morning explaining exactly the same story. Some people on the zen reddit subforum are trying to prove that Dogen never went to China, was never given Dharma transmission by Rujing and that Shikantaza is the same as "prayer-meditation". Which is funny, because there are actual scientific studies proving the benefits of zazen. Before joining TreeLeaf I read their threads for some months, but the people are incredibly toxic to each other and everyone is trying to play zen master. And some members are clearly trying to create a cult around only reading early zen masters. Plus, they also claim that zen is not connected to Buddhism in the first place...

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

[Tairin]

My thought is that even if all this Buddhist, Zen, shikantaza stuff turns out to be a sham there is still real benefits to sitting quietly each day and following a handful of common sense guidance on how to conduct oneself.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Bion]

I just sent a message to Jundo this morning explaining exactly the same story. Some people on the zen reddit subforum are trying to prove that Dogen never went to China, was never given Dharma transmission by Rujing and that Shikantaza is the same as "prayer-meditation". Which is funny, because there are actual scientific studies proving the benefits of zazen. Before joining TreeLeaf I read their threads for some months, but the people are incredibly toxic to each other and everyone is trying to play zen master. And some members are clearly trying to create a cult.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Nah.. Stay away. It’s not even worth the “conversations”. [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Doshin]

My thought is that even if all this Buddhist, Zen, shikantaza stuff turns out to be a sham there is still real benefits to sitting quietly each day and following a handful of common sense guidance on how to conduct oneself.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

This

Doshin
St

[Bion]

My thought is that even if all this Buddhist, Zen, shikantaza stuff turns out to be a sham there is still real benefits to sitting quietly each day and following a handful of common sense guidance on how to conduct oneself.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

I think anyone who’s sat zazen for a while can attest to the fact that it is not and can not be a sham. So we’re good to continue [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Seikan]

This is why I have long been drawn to Zen (and Buddhism in general). There is plenty for the intellect to chew on, but at the end of the day, as practitioners, we are like scientists. We must take all the theories, etc. and put them to test in the lab of Zazen.



Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


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[Jundo]

Many of those questions were excellent, despite the elaborate gymnastics that were required in order to find reasons to reject them.

Hi Kyoshin,

I am just curious if you meant that the evidence I presented was the gymnastics? Or his response to the evidence?

Granted, there was nobody in the 6th Century who said in clear words, "What I am about to teach is exactly what will be taught by someone in the future named Dogen 600 years from now." There are only hints and traces.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

Gentle speech, nobody to hell. Brad is a good fellow. But some of the Dharma punk folks around his blog back in the day ... my first lesson in the hells of the internet!

Gassho, J

STlah

My apologies, it was intended as a joke, clearly turned out to be a bad one. I'm not denying Brad's genuity or authenticity. But something struck me in his lengthy response to a certain criticism : maybe is the language and I'm picking on nothing, but as some of you mentioned we don't have to agree with everyone, and not all styles will suit everyone.

http://hardcorezen.info/in-which-i-am-criticized-by-the-master-of-antaiji-temple/287

Gassho
Sat