Zen, Bodhisattva vow and veganism/vegetarianism

[Inshin]

I'm aware that Buddha himself used to eat meat, partly because he accepted (without craving or rejection) what was offered to him, and also at his times meat wasn't consumed at such a rate as nowadays.

Considering the scale of animal suffering and ecological destruction modern meat industry causes, should modern Bodhisattvas be vegan or a least vegetarian with as much avoidance of any animal "product" as possible?

I know of Zen monasteries that serve only vegan food, but there are also some where meat is consumed. I am very curious of what you all think of it.

Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

I'm aware that Buddha himself used to eat meat, partly because he accepted (without craving or rejection) what was offered to him, and also at his times meat wasn't consumed at such a rate as nowadays.

Considering the scale of animal suffering and ecological destruction modern meat industry causes, should modern Bodhisattvas be vegan or a least vegetarian with as much avoidance of any animal "product" as possible?

I know of Zen monasteries that serve only vegan food, but there are also some where meat is consumed. I am very curious of what you all think of it.

Gassho
Sat

I personally am a vegetarian and I made that choice because my conscience led me there, but I eat well without including meat in my diet and I feel like killing any creature or eating a dead being’s flesh is not really necessary for my survival. I did find myself in situations where I was unexpectedly invited at friends’ houses and they weren’t ready to feed a vegetarian so I chose to show respect and gratitude by eating whatever I could while still avoiding red meat or chicken. My thinking is that what others feel is right or correct is not necessarily what your conscience might dictate for you and that’s fine because in time, after practice and learning, everything will fall into place for everyone and you’ll naturally do what’s right.

SatToday lah

[Juki]

I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons relating to the mistreatment of animals in the food system. But, I don't believe it's required to be a good Buddhist or a Bodhisattva. Millions of Buddhists living at high altitudes in the Himalayas or in higher latitudes like Mongolia do not have access to a completely vegetarian diet due simply to where they live and the inability to grow grains and vegetables in sufficient quantity, so they have to make use of animal products and it does not lessen their practice. I think what's important is to really reflect on the food you take in -- its source and the processes by which it came to you, and this is why we have a meal gatha. Ultimately, you need to make your own choice.

Gassho,
Juki

sat today and lah

[Jundo]

Although I believe that vegetarianism is a good thing, especially in this world of industrial farming, I also feel that it is a matter of individual choice.

Japanese Buddhist priests and clergy tend to eat meat and fish (although there are many exceptions as a personal choice) when not in a training monastery, where the food served tends to be a very sophisticated kind of vegetarian cooking called "Shojin Ryori (which actually mimics many meat, chicken and fish textures using such items as certain mushrooms and tofu). I note that strict vegetarian became most common in Chinese Buddhism for various historical reasons, but the Indians, Thai and other South Asians, Tibetans, Koreans and Japanese were never fully vegetarian.

This is a good topic to discuss in some detail during our upcoming Precept reflections in Jukai on "avoiding the taking of life."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

I feel like killing any creature or eating a dead being’s flesh is not really necessary for my survival

Hi all

This usually comes up in respect of the first 'do not kill' precept but we are early this year!

If you are vegetarian and eat milk or eggs, you are still participating in the system of farming animals. Even vegan diets cause the death of animals through the production of fruit, vegetables and cereals and the use of pesticides and encroachment of habitat that occurs with that. In the end it is almost impossible avoid death as some part of the food chain.

However, that does not mean to say that we should not reflect deeply on our food choices and the interconnected web that brings them to us, in terms of the amount of suffering caused (both to humans and animals), and environmental harm through the method of production and food miles, and try to minimise that as much as we can.

It is also important to note that people have different degrees of choice around the food they buy - a single mother feeding a family cannot always afford to buy organic and may have to choose produce which comes from less sustainable and ethically raised methods.

At Treeleaf we ask everyone to consider their own diet and food choices in respect of the first precept, but not to judge anyone else on the conclusions they have come to. It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou". As has already been stated, the original Buddhist sangha was not vegetarian and there are no Buddhist rules on this (there is a section at the end of the Mahayana Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra which exhorts Buddhists to be vegetarian but the sutra itself was believed to have been composed around 350-400 CE and the part on vegetarianism added even later than that).

I was personally vegetarian or vegan for over twenty-five years before finding a need to add fish to my diet for health reasons.

Apologies for going over the three sentence rule.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Bion]

Although I believe that vegetarianism is a good thing, especially in this world of industrial farming, I also feel that it is a matter of individual choice.

Japanese Buddhist priests and clergy tend to eat meat and fish (although there are many exceptions as a personal choice) when not in a training monastery, where the food served tends to be a very sophisticated kind of vegetarian cooking called "Shojin Ryori (which actually mimics many meat, chicken and fish textures using such items as certain mushrooms and tofu). I note that strict vegetarian became most common in Chinese Buddhism for various historical reasons, but the Indians, Thai and other South Asians, Tibetans, Koreans and Japanese were never fully vegetarian.

This is a good topic to discuss in some detail during our upcoming Precept reflections in Jukai on "avoiding the taking of life."

Gassho, J

STLah

You know how amazing Shojin Ryori tastes!!!! [emoji1]


SatToday lah

[Bion]

Hi all

This usually comes up in respect of the first 'do not kill' precept but we are early this year!

If you are vegetarian and eat milk or eggs, you are still participating in the system of farming animals. Even vegan diets cause the death of animals through the production of fruit, vegetables and cereals and the use of pesticides and encroachment of habitat that occurs with that. In the end it is almost impossible avoid death as some part of the food chain.

However, that does not mean to say that we should not reflect deeply on our food choices and the interconnected web that brings them to us, in terms of the amount of suffering caused (both to humans and animals), and environmental harm through the method of production and food miles, and try to minimise that as much as we can.

It is also important to note that people have different degrees of choice around the food they buy - a single mother feeding a family cannot always afford to buy organic and may have to choose produce which comes from less sustainable and ethically raised methods.

At Treeleaf we ask everyone to consider their own diet and food choices in respect of the first precept, but not to judge anyone else on the conclusions they have come to. It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou". As has already been stated, the original Buddhist sangha was not vegetarian and there are no Buddhist rules on this (there is a section at the end of the Mahayana Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra which exhorts Buddhists to be vegetarian but the sutra itself was believed to have been composed around 350-400 CE and the part on vegetarianism added even later than that).

I was personally vegetarian or vegan for over twenty-five years before finding a need to add fish to my diet for health reasons.

Apologies for going over the three sentence rule.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Exactly! Thanks. I made sure to refer to my choices.

SatToday lah

[Inshin]

I find myself in a bit of dilemma here. Knowing the scale of suffering the modern meat and dairy industry causes it is difficult for me to justify animal consumption and in a perfect environment I would probably be completely vegan. Yet my family eats meat, and since I'm not expert nutritionist I wouldn't dare to advise anyone on "right" diet, especially children. As a family chef I end up occasionally preparing meat and fish, but make sure that my vegan meals that they also eat are way tastier ��. I recommend to watch a beautiful episode of Chef's Table (available on Netflix) about Jeong Kwan. A South Korean Zen vegan chef who attracted attention of world's top renowned chefs. The way she expresses herself is so beautiful.

Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

I find myself in a bit of dilemma here. Knowing the scale of suffering the modern meat and dairy industry causes it is difficult for me to justify animal consumption and in a perfect environment I would probably be completely vegan. Yet my family eats meat, and since I'm not expert nutritionist I wouldn't dare to advise anyone on "right" diet, especially children. As a family chef I end up occasionally preparing meat and fish, but make sure that my vegan meals that they also eat are way tastier ��. I recommend to watch a beautiful episode of Chef's Table (available on Netflix) about Jeong Kwan. A South Korean Zen vegan chef who attracted attention of world's top renowned chefs. The way she expresses herself is so beautiful.

Gassho
Sat

There are many factors taken into account when deciding a diet, such as cultural and social background, economic situation, available products, health issues.. While you can’t justify meat consumption, the fisherman in China who has never traveled farther than his village, whose main source for food is the Ocean, whose house dangles from the cliff and gets sprayed by the waves every time the sea gets moody, might have a much more difficult time justifying not taking advantage of what is naturally available to him and his struggling family. We are all very different and thus our choices will be different but ultimately the Buddha taught the Middle way, the balanced way of no extremes and no attachments and that is what we try to follow.


SatToday lah

[Inshin]

There are many factors taken into account when deciding a diet, such as cultural and social background, economic situation, available products, health issues.. While you can’t justify meat consumption, the fisherman in China who has never traveled farther than his village, whose main source for food is the Ocean, whose house dangles from the cliff and gets sprayed by the waves every time the sea gets moody, might have a much more difficult time justifying not taking advantage of what is naturally available to him and his struggling family. We are all very different and thus our choices will be different but ultimately the Buddha taught the Middle way, the balanced way of no extremes and no attachments and that is what we try to follow.


SatToday lah

Thank you for your reply. I completely agree with your point. My interest in veganism is specifically related to Bodhisattva vow, those who consciously decide to end/reduce the suffering of all sentient beings.
Gassho
Satan

[Bion]

Thank you for your reply. I completely agree with your point. My interest in veganism is specifically related to Bodhisattva vow, those who consciously decide to end/reduce the suffering of all sentient beings.
Gassho
Satan

I understand, yeah. We’d have to get into the whole defining suffering topic and see what that means and what it entails and how much of our karmic consequences we can actually control or foresee. [emoji3526]
[emoji1374]
SatToday lah

[Meitou]

Hi all


At Treeleaf we ask everyone to consider their own diet and food choices in respect of the first precept, but not to judge anyone else on the conclusions they have come to. It is an entirely personal matter and no one gets to be "more Buddhist than thou".

Apologies for going over the three sentence rule.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Amen.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

[gaurdianaq]

This will probably go over the 3 sentence rule so apologies in advanced.

I'm of the opinion that if everything is truly interconnected, then we can't view any life higher or lower than others. I don't doubt that plants can feel some form of pain/suffering even if it's not the same as animals tend to. I believe that whatever it is we eat we need to show respect and give thanks for the nourishment it provides us, be it meat or plant based. That being said as a society we've engaged in cruel practices when it comes to meat, we raise them in cruel conditions in order to maximize output. My personal view is that as a society we need to eat less meat, and try and ensure that the meat we get has been well treated in it's life. Unfortunately society has made this more difficult, because meat that is raised ethically is more expensive it is harder for people to afford, plus people have grown into a society that encourages mindless consumption of whatever tastes good. We're used to eating meat multiple times a day! Of course there is nothing wrong with vegetarianism either and no one should be denied that choice either.


Evan,
Sat today!

[Risho]

Amen.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday

Ditto to that Amen!

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Nenka]

At this point in my life, I feel the best I can do is to eat in moderation and don't let any food go to waste.

Gassho

Nenka
ST