Rapturous Samadhi?

[A.J.]

Any thoughts on navigating the sometimes rapturous terrain of Samadhi without being attached to the pleasant meditation experiences it sometimes produces?

Are these states significant indicating right practice to some extent or are they to be disregarded as so many phantasms of the mind?

I'm also interested in personal experiences with reflections on how they relate to practice if anyone would like to share.

Gassho

-Andrew-

SatLah

[Onka]

Any thoughts on navigating the sometimes rapturous terrain of Samadhi without being attached to the pleasant meditation experiences it sometimes produces?

Are these states significant indicating right practice to some extent or are they to be disregarded as so many phantasms of the mind?

I'm also interested in personal experiences with reflections on how they relate to practice if anyone would like to share.

Gassho

-Andrew-

SatLah

Hi Andrew
I've never experienced anything close to pleasant while sitting. I actually find sitting extremely painful but what I personally gain in acceptance of each moment impacts more on others and how I engage with the world than myself.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[Amelia]

During any pleasant state in life, in zazen or otherwise, I just enjoy it while it visits and let it go when it goes. I do not push it away or disallow myself from looking forward to a good thing. They are not a sign of good or bad practice, just a part of life and sitting, as are also the less pleasant feelings.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

Any thoughts on navigating the sometimes rapturous terrain of Samadhi without being attached to the pleasant meditation experiences it sometimes produces?

Are these states significant indicating right practice to some extent or are they to be disregarded as so many phantasms of the mind?

I'm also interested in personal experiences with reflections on how they relate to practice if anyone would like to share.

Gassho

-Andrew-

SatLah

Hi Andrew,

Just as Geika teaches. Lovely.

Generally, in Soto Zen, they are neither to be run toward nor turned away from. In themselves, they are jewels, yet are not signs of progress. When they are present, we celebrate such. When they are not present, we celebrate such. I stumbled on a related quote today from Master Dogen in his Hokyo Zanmai (Precious Mirror Samadhi). Dogen is commenting on a saying by a Chinese master that "Aiming toward suchness is wrong." Dōgen then says that turning away from suchness is wrong, aiming toward suchness is also wrong, and then adds, "Aiming toward suchness and turning away from suchness are also both just suchness. Moreover, even being wrong is also itself suchness."

Some kinds of Buddhism and other meditation practices take the reaching of very deep, or very blissful and rapturous states as progress. That can be a kind of narcotic, and misses the subtle message that Illuminates even the ordinary mind AND the blissful mind to the wise.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

By the way, Andrew, you might be interested in the history and examination of Jhana and samadhi by Richard Shankman. He makes the argument that the Fourth Jhana, originally the highest, is actually a putting aside of blissful and highly concentrated states in favor of equanimious sitting with a sense of wholeness, at least as described in the Suttas before the Vishudimagga and other commentaries (perhaps under the influence of Bhraman/Hindu practices which the Buddha originally may have rejected) turned the meaning of Jhana to some kinds of deeply concentrated and blissful, even other worldly states:

"Just Sitting" Shikantaza which we practice at Treeleaf is placed in historical context perhaps closer to the intent of the older Pali Suttas for "open, spacious, aware samadhi which thus brings insight" than other later forms.

Richard Shankman--a teacher in the insight meditation tradition and the author of the recently released book The Experience of Samadhi--joins us to discuss the various teachings and approaches to what in the Theravada tradition is called samadhi or concentration meditation.

During this episode Richard shares some of his personal background with samadhi practice and also explains two different forms of deep samadhi, called jhana in the Theravada tradition--one from the time of the Buddha as captured by the Pali Suttas and another which arouse hundreds of years later and which is captured in the authoritative text, the Visuddhimagga. Listen in to find out about these different forms of deep concentration and absorption, which are a hallmark of the Theravada tradition of Buddhism...

...

Discussion with insight meditation teacher and author, Richard Shankman. In this episode we continue to dissect the different kinds of samadhi and their respective fruits--what in the Theravada tradition are called jhana (or "meditative absorption"). According to Shankman there are two ways of approaching the attainment of jhana, one as was taught in the original canonical texts of the Theravada, the Pali Suttas, and the other from the later commentaries on the Buddha's teachings, the Vishudimagga. As a result we get two different forms of jhana--one called Sutta jhana and the other called Vishudimagga jhana. This two-fold understanding, though geeky, shines light on the different methods of practicing both samadhi and vipassana meditation and offers a unitary model for understanding the two together.

His book:

https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/The_Experience_of_Samadhi.html?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y

Interview 1

https://art19.com/shows/buddhist-geeks/episodes/941e9aa6-b270-4f52-a55e-dbf132e13cce

Interview 2

https://art19.com/shows/buddhist-gee...d-611262bfad41

Gassho, J

STLah

[Horin]

I'm enjoying the beautiful experiences during Zazen, but also allow the things I do not find pleasant to come and go. We don't have to prefer one experience over another.

Geika already put it into beautiful words.

Gassho

Horin

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Jundo]

PS - A bit more on this, from an old post:

Richard Shankman's book makes one very interesting point about the "Fourth Jhana in the Suttas," as opposed to the highly concentrated, hyper-absorbed Visuddhimagga commentary version. The Fourth Jhana in the Pali Suttas was considered the 'summit' of Jhana practice (as the higher Jhana, No. 5 to 8, were not encouraged as a kind of otherworldly 'dead end') and appears to manifest (quoting the sutta descriptions in the book) "an abandoning of pleasure, pain, attractions/aversions, a dropping of both joy and grief", a dropping away of both rapture and bliss states, resulting in a "purity of mindfulness" and "equanimity". Combine this with the fact that, more than a "one pointed mind absorbed into a particular object", there is a "unification of mind" (described as a broader awareness around the object of meditation ... whereby the "mind itself becomes collected and unmoving, but not the objects of awareness, as mindfulness becomes lucid, effortless and unbroken" (See, for examples. pages 82-83 here))

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&lpg=PP1&ots=Nfh_Zax84P&dq=richard%20skankman&pg=PA80#v=onepage&q&f=false

A bit of the discussion of the highest (in Buddhist Practice) "Fourth Jhana", and its emphasis on equanimity while present amid circumstances (and a dropping of bliss states), can be found on page 49.

This is very close to a description of Shikantaza, for example, as dropping all aversions and attractions, finding unification of mind, collected and unmoving, effortless and unbroken, in/as/through/not removed from the life, circumstances, complexities which surround us and are us, sitting still with what is just as it is.

[Meian]

I don't recall experiencing rapture. Due to personal circumstances, sitting is often painful or uncomfortable for me -- so I learn to be with whatever is for short periods. Otherwise, I also sit with other times, when I focus on breathing and just being present.

At some point this year, my experience of strong emotions may have lessened, or maybe I just stopped engaging, I'm not sure. I'm not making a judgment, simply reflecting on what has changed. As for the pain, that's become like anything else I live with.

Gassho, meian st lh

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[Bokucho]

I don't believe that I've ever experienced this with Shikantaza, though it was fairly frequent when I was doing jhana practices, and working with the various stages of Pīti. In those it was supposed to be a marker for progress, but honestly it just felt like my mind was making things up because it was bored. The human brain is incredibly powerful, and living in an illusory world is wild and beautiful...Geika said it best, though! [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

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[Kaishin]

Hi Andrew
I've never experienced anything close to pleasant while sitting. I actually find sitting extremely painful but what I personally gain in acceptance of each moment impacts more on others and how I engage with the world than myself.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

I'd have to say the same for myself. It's not something I look forward to doing, or generally enjoy doing after all these years. Dogen said zazen "is the dharma gate of joyful ease," which I could never square with the reality of my sitting practice.

If I want physical and mental pleasantness, I do yoga asanas or breathing exercises. (And admittedly, I'm more likely to do these than zazen lately...which is why I don't post much here anymore, but felt compelled to say something in this case, lest anyone gets the idea that after years of practice zazen will somehow magically become amazing for everyone...)

s2d/lah

[Kokuu]

Hi Andrew

I have had times when I was sitting when I broke into a completely spontaneous smile due to the joy that rose up in me. Other times, it has seemed like someone has tinkered with my timer settings as pain meant sitting felt endless.

Our practice is not to generate any special state but instead to sit with things just as they are. So, if pleasure is there we sit with that and likewise if there is pain. Each is just dependent arising, and attaching the idea of 'I' or 'mine' to it is to risk attachment or aversion.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Horin]

Hi Andrew

I have had times when I was sitting when I broke into a completely spontaneous smile due to the joy that rose up in me. Other times, it has seemed like someone has tinkered with my timer settings as pain meant sitting felt endless.

Our practice is not to generate any special state but instead to sit with things just as they are. So, if pleasure is there we sit with that and likewise if there is pain. Each is just dependent arising, and attaching the idea of 'I' or 'mine' to it is to risk attachment or aversion.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Horin

Stlah


Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Risho]

Hi Andrew

I have had times when I was sitting when I broke into a completely spontaneous smile due to the joy that rose up in me. Other times, it has seemed like someone has tinkered with my timer settings as pain meant sitting felt endless.

Our practice is not to generate any special state but instead to sit with things just as they are. So, if pleasure is there we sit with that and likewise if there is pain. Each is just dependent arising, and attaching the idea of 'I' or 'mine' to it is to risk attachment or aversion.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you Kokuu. That is funny - the biggest problems I have with practice is when I try to do it for some purpose or reject it for lack thereof. In a way, it just doesn't matter what you feel; just sit. Once you really understand that you want to sit, which may take a while - that ox is stubborn, I know mine is, then you just say I'm doing this, and no matter how you feel it just doesn't matter anymore

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[A.J.]

I've never purposely aimed at blissful states in meditation having already been influenced by Zen as well as Chogyam Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" early on in my exploration of practice. However, I have at times stumbled upon them and been surprised at the strong quality of equanimity with absorption they can have. This has sometimes sent me looking back into the Hindu and early Buddhist traditions from which the entire practice of formal meditation sprang for some commentary on the subject matter...

...all points of view on the subject are appreciated

Gassho

-Andrew-

SatLah.

[Jundo]

I don't recall experiencing rapture. ....

Hmmm. I am actually a bit surprised by the comments from some of our long time Zazen folks that they have never, or rarely, experienced rapture or deep bliss states (I am not speaking about "rapture" to the extent that one feels as if one has just mainlined heroin or even the laughing gas from the dentist, but a simple and powerful feeling of bliss while sitting). It is actually very easy for me to summon up waves of bliss during sitting, putting aside thoughts, centering on breath or the moment or open awareness, then accessing within as if "pushing a button" a feeling of warm bliss. Do so all together, and it is a powerful experience (even that warm feeling between the eyes will often manifest, although I put that down just to my relaxing and becoming aware of that "third eye" spot, and not some mysterious chakra or the like. Focus on the left elbow in such a time, and one experiences "third elbow" ).

The reason that we don't do so in Shikantaza is because it is like the chocolate cake in the refrigerator: It is there, luscious and delicious, but I don't chase after it or make it the "be all end all" of my meal just because it is so sweet and delicious and pleasant. It is part of a well balanced meal, but I accept whatever is healthy and put on my plate, including the bitter but nutritious greens. If I only run to the fridge seeking cake cake cake, sweet sweet sweet, then it is but another drug, and I miss that the rest ... soup and nuts, water and greens, bitter and sweet, welcome and unwelcome ... is the whole meal of life. In Zen, we also see through all the separate dishes and tastes to the Buddha that is serving the meal! That is why we do not emphasize the bliss of chocolate cake, but neither do we run from it if it sometimes manifests for dessert.

I would like to ask folks to try a little experiment during Shikantaza, breaking our usual protocol: After you have been sitting for a few minutes, settled a bit, recall a memory of what it feels like to be blissful. Summon up that memory and the actual sensation of bliss, waves of peace and contentment washing through your heart. Can you do so, and actually summon up feelings of bliss? Be like a "method actor" for awhile, staying with that feeling of bliss as if you are acting out what it feels like to be blissful, a goddess floating on Cloud 9, enveloped in powerful feeling as if you just breathed in some peace gas. Bath in the feeling. Can you do so? Please report back to us.

However, after a minute or two, please put the chocolate cake down, return to just sitting in equanimity with whatever comes.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - Even raptures to rival heroin are possible with some meditations forms, but we consider that a trap almost as bad as actually shooting up.