Psychedlic Buddhism?

[Kyoshin]

. I dont encourage this approach but if you want to see some truly awakened and enlightened ones, take a stroll to your local 12 Step group. These people have gone to hell and back whereas most are afraid of going to hell.

Thanks Jishin,
Incidentally the single best human being I've had the privilege to know is one of those. I haven't seen him in a while, and the thought of him brightened my day considerably. Thanks for reminding me.
Gassho,
Nick


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[Kyoshin]

Hi Nick

Thank you for the clarification and to be clear I am not opposed to the use of drugs for clear medical purposes. I read your comment about getting “buzzed” as implying recreational use of drugs. My apologies for jumping to conclusions


Tairin
Sat today

Hi Tairin,
No worries. I figured my word choice might have communicated the wrong idea. Too colloquial, I guess, but what do you expect from a guy who gasshos like this? [emoji16][emoji106][emoji106]
Gassho (the real kind) [emoji120],
Nick

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[Jishin]

Jishin

You clearly have valuable experience in dealing with people going through problems with substance abuse and I am sure many people have good reason to be grateful to you for that.

However, I don't think that any of those examples are support for the ongoing use of psychedelics. Sure, past experience and even tasting what your patients are going through may be valuable but is unlikely to apply to the vast majority of those on the Buddhist path considering whether or not to use non-prescription pharmaceuticals to enhance their practice. Even those drawing on their past experience of drug use are unlikely to benefit from an ongoing habit.

Someone is hardly an armchair Buddhist because they haven't brought someone back from overdose.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes, it is unlikely to apply to the vast majority of those on the Buddhist path but this is my point:

"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim
Because it was grassy and wanted wear,
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."

- Robert Frost

What is the road less travelled? Hard to say. Is an ongoing habit beneficial? Hard to say. Is someone an armchair Buddhist? Hard to say. Maybe so.

I don't know much but feel compelled to impart my ignorance to others on occasion. It's a fault of mine.

My thinking has evolved from absolute abstinence to a kinder gentler stance. Some folks can not quit at once. Sobriety is a terrible thing for people who are not ready. They dry up and the initial conditions that lead to drinking appear in full force. It is cruel to insist that they don't use. Some will always be better practitioners while using. Medicine has different meanings.

My ignorant 2 cents.


Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Hoseki]

Hi guys,

I guess I feel differently about this then most. I'm not advocating taking psychedelics with practice but if people do I can't stop them and if enough people do it then it becomes a sect. Doesn't it? I believe this is how sects are created. There is some innovation, change in interpretation, claim to really represent what an important figure really meant etc. If a group of people are able to work it into their practice then I guess that's there practice.

As for my personal practice I can't see how it would help with Zazen or any other part of my practice. Especially given my personal struggles with anxiety and depression. Having a powerful escape at my fingertips would probably not be good for me.

As for the helicopter story I think the difference between the climber and the helicopter guy highlights a big part of our practice. What I like to think of as the " the what now?" its like the ending of the Graduate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD8NlCKX3LQ). It lingers just a little too long and the people in the scene are getting a sense of "what do we do now? I think that's what one gets after satori or a peak experience (not that I've had one.) What happens after satori? Well it depends maybe they need to use the bathroom but there isn't either one around? I think we've all been there. Or perhaps one has the do the dishes. Either way, there are needs that have to be meet and attended to.

When I started writing this I had a point but its escaped me.

hiking day and night
helicopter landing on a mountain
sharing a picnic


Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

[Emmet]

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away (the Haight-Ashbury in the 70's), I had extensive experience with psychedelics of all sorts (as Doshin observed, in retrospect, that time could have been put to better use). What would seem like truly mystical, divinely inspired, deep, penetrating insights into the true nature of life, the universe, & everything at 3:00 AM almost invariably reverted to pathetic sophomoric drivel once the LSD wore off in the illuminating light of day. I've found that I'm quite delusional enough sober; thanks all the same. It's been my experience that chemically-induced makyo is a poor, sad substitute for genuine kenshō.

Then, there's that whole '5th Precept' thing...

Sat today.

[Jishin]

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away (the Haight-Ashbury in the 70's), I had extensive experience with psychedelics of all sorts (as Doshin observed, in retrospect, that time could have been put to better use). What would seem like truly mystical, divinely inspired, deep, penetrating insights into the true nature of life, the universe, & everything at 3:00 AM almost invariably reverted to pathetic sophomoric drivel once the LSD wore off in the illuminating light of day. I've found that I'm quite delusional enough sober; thanks all the same. It's been my experience that chemically-induced makyo is a poor, sad substitute for genuine kenshō.

Then, there's that whole '5th Precept' thing...

Sat today.

I like the Precepts, particularly since they are not commandements and subject to interpretation.

Regarding the 5th precept, some would say that one is not ready for recovery until they hit bottom (AA parlance for suffering enough).

"The fool who persists in his folly will become wise."

- William Blake

Some actually recommend the alcoholic taking another drink to reach sobriety quicker. Another unfortunate example of no pain no gain.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Shoki]

I saw Brad's video a few months ago about the helicopter and I tend to agree. I know nothing about any other forms of meditation but the thought of sitting zazen with the fine folks at Treeleaf while under the influence is a ridiculous idea. Even sitting under the influence of cannabis is, for me, a no go. These substances make my mind work in a way that is not conducive to zen practice. But that's just me. That said, I did use the psychedelic substance salvia divonorum a few years ago and it was one of the most astonishing, life changing experiences of my life. I would not recommend using it, though. It wiped away years of psychological junk and had a beneficial effect so I do understand that some substances under the right conditions can be good but I do not see any of this as anything I can take into zazen. I know that 'all things are zazen' but even when my mind is cleared up, I can't see any direct application to it in sitting. But again. That's just me. I like to take the long way up the mountain. Happy trails.

Gassho
Sat Today / LAH
James

[Hoseki]

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away (the Haight-Ashbury in the 70's), I had extensive experience with psychedelics of all sorts (as Doshin observed, in retrospect, that time could have been put to better use). What would seem like truly mystical, divinely inspired, deep, penetrating insights into the true nature of life, the universe, & everything at 3:00 AM almost invariably reverted to pathetic sophomoric drivel once the LSD wore off in the illuminating light of day. I've found that I'm quite delusional enough sober; thanks all the same. It's been my experience that chemically-induced makyo is a poor, sad substitute for genuine kenshō.

Then, there's that whole '5th Precept' thing...

Sat today.

Hi Piobair,

While I'm sure it will come up again when we do the Precept discussion but the precepts are like sign posts along a path. You don't have to always follow them to the letter but its probably a good idea. for example, when I drove to work this morning I certainly killed some unfortunately bugs. If I grew my own food I would have to kill plants and possibly other animals. When my house was build it displayed habitat likely leading to the death of other animals.

Some claim that our entire economic system is based on exploitation (a kind of theft) of workers by those who control the means of production or capital and my participation in such a system helps to maintain the charade of a just economy. But I need to work to look after myself and my family.

I certainly get angry and sometimes hold grudges. In some sense it seems to happen on its own.

Does a passing sexual fantasy count as an abuse of third grave precept? I think it might.

These are all cases where it could be made I'm violating the precepts but I think (hope) at least one would ring true with your life as well.

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

[Jundo]

Well...

All of life is our temple.

I don't think you know what the meaning of Practice is.

I would keep my mouth shut until you been pushed out of a car by using associates after an overdose and brought back to life again by ER personnel who happen to be in recovery. Or by professionals in recovery who can Practice effectively because of their life experiences. Or by laymen who Practice effectively by sharing their experiences, strength and hope with others that only understand recovery when it comes from the mouth of one that is in recovery.

You sound like an armchair buddhist. A bodhisattva saves the world first before crossing to the other side. You seem to want to save yourself first. But to judge is wrong and so I will stop here.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

I would mention, as he has spoken about it, that Myoho has life experiences on the battlefield that I would call hell and back ...

From when he was Enkyo here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10791-Perspectives-on-Non-Violence&p=98534&viewfull=1#post98534

Myoho is our Master of "recovery" who teaches me.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

I would mention, as he has spoken about it, that Myoho has life experiences on the battlefield that I would call hell and back ...

From when he was Enkyo here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10791-Perspectives-on-Non-Violence&p=98534&viewfull=1#post98534

Myoho is our Master of "recovery" who teaches me.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

I salute Myoho for his service.

I have a friend who did 35 years as enlisted and achieved the highest rank as enlisted. He could and did defy generals. Never lost rank. You would never know it. He burned his uniform and military id when honorably discharged and the only thing he kept are his military pension checks that he happily cashes on a monthly basis. Not one word of what he did in the military.

Now days he is a happy filing clerk at a real estate office with probable top secret clearance in his old age.

When he comes across vets touting military war stories his reply is always "thank you for your service" and he moves on. He thinks that there is nothing special about serving in the military other than serving in the military. It's what a soldier does. I agree. I also served.

We all teach each other.

Again, I salute Myoho for his service.


Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Emmet]

"The fool who persists in his folly will become wise."

- William Blake

I keep waiting....

[Jishin]

I keep waiting....

Got me.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jundo]

I salute Myoho for his service.

I have a friend who did 35 years as enlisted and achieved the highest rank as enlisted. He could and did defy generals. Never lost rank. You would never know it. He burned his uniform and military id when honorably discharged and the only thing he kept are his military pension checks that he happily cashes on a monthly basis. Not one word of what he did in the military.

Now days he is a happy filing clerk at a real estate office with probable top secret clearance in his old age.

When he comes across vets touting military war stories his reply is always "thank you for your service" and he moves on. He thinks that there is nothing special about serving in the military other than serving in the military. It's what a soldier does. I agree. I also served.

We all teach each other.

Again, I salute Myoho for his service.


Gassho, Jishin, ST

Myoho's experiences, and his road from hell and back, has been so much more than that, Jishin. Please do not make them small. I know the details, and what I gave you was just a taste.

When Myoho speaks of suffering and the recovery from suffering, I shut up and listen.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

Myoho's experiences, and his road from hell and back, has been so much more than that, Jishin. Please do not make them small. I know the details, and what I gave you was just a taste.

When Myoho speaks of suffering and the recovery from suffering, I shut up and listen.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

You are right.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Doshin]

Coincidentally while following this thread I learned of a new book by M. Pollan https://www.amazon.com/Change-Your-M...michael+pollan

Gassho
Doshin
st