Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[Tai Shi]

Thank you Jundo—think I’ll loop my mantra to simple breath counting then punctuate with The a Serenity Prayer.
Tai Sho
sat/ lah
Gassho


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[Bokugan]

Yes, you are actually the best judge of posture. This book is highly recommended for finding the posture(s) for you (plural, because the body is actually a bit fluid in sitting).

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

However, I was just think to ask folks to post some pictures in another thread. You may want to do so so that I can take a look.

Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo,

I added the book to my list, I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks!

I'll see about posting a picture sometime if you kick a thread up for that. I really appreciate how the focus is on being comfortable, and that this fact is brought up repeatedly in the intro video. I need to keep that my focus when it comes to posture.

Short update -- I did experiment more this morning, removed a full cup of the buckwheat hulls (boy did I nearly make a mess there!) and my session was better. I definitely think the zafu height is part of it.

Gassho,

Ryan
Sat Today

[Bokugan]

Prior to Treeleaf, about 7 years ago, I was able to sit one hour or more at a time without any pain. It was not till I joined Treeleaf and began reading and taking other folks advice on how to sit properly that I began to have pain and difficulty with sitting or kneeling for extended periods. Sitting is intuitive. Little instruction is needed. Attachment to “right sitting” or “posture” in my case has caused a lot of problems. I always do better when I ignore advice on how to sit and just sit.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Hi Jishin,

I'm certainly one to overthink things, and can totally see where I might be working too hard to be in what I have in my head as an "authentic" posture. Thank you for this -- I think I needed a reminder/reinforcement that the whole idea is quite simple: "just sit"

I'll be sure to keep this in mind as I settle in next time.

Gassho,
Ryan

Sat Today

[bayamo]

Aw geez how this bugs me. For all me years sitting, watching paint dry (actually now it's tiles, my wall has tiles), I've never been able to shake the "is my back straight?", and always check my shadow on the wall.
#sattoday

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[Yokai]

Listened to Zazen for Beginners 1. Incisive. My head is full of blenders! Many thanks Jundo. Gasho Chris - sat today -

[Meian]

If not for Treeleaf I would not be practicing at all.

Due to certain issues, I am unable to straighten my spine, nor am I able to hold certain postures for lengths of time without severe pain or lingering side effects.

Here, I don't have to - I sit or recline in a way that minimizes problems while fulfilling the intent and purpose of shikantaza.

And sometimes, when the pain is there no matter what, I sit with that also and let things be as they are.

Gassho
Meian
St lh

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[Shokai]

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

Gassho,

ZenHalfTimeCrock

ST

[Jundo]

Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

Gassho,

ZenHalfTimeCrock

ST

Hi Zen (Would you mind to sign a human first name? lt makes things just a touch more human around here.)

l like to say that Zazen is about hearing the Big "S" Silence that is found ringing forth as both ordinary worldly silence AND the greatest earthly noise. There are some old Zen book that say that sound is an excellent doorway in Zazen. Do you know that the tinnitus is in your ears, but the "being disturbed" by the tinnitus is your own doing between the ears. Try to practice not being disturbed even amid usually disturbing things. Later, there is a video about Zazen in downtown Tokyo that makes much the same point.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Luigi]

I'm watching the full Zazen for Beginners series and I particularly loved the video number 7.

When Jundo talks about the fact "we have forgotten the wisdom of the garden"—comparing our non-stop thoughts about right and wrong with the rocks and trees of his garden, it reminded of Master Dogen's koan #16 from Shinji-Shobogenzo:

A monk asks the Zen Master: "How can we make mountains, rivers, and the earth belong to ourselves?"
The Master says: "How can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth?"

According to the koan's commentary: "Mountains, rivers and the great earth are ceaselessly manifesting the teachings, yet they are not heard with the ear or seen with the eye. They can only be perceived with the whole body and mind. Be that as it may, how can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth? What is that you are calling mountains, rivers and the earth? Indeed, where do you find yourself?"

In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.

To get back to Jundo's video, when just sitting, we find ourselves beyond the self and also beyond perception. "Where do we find ourselves?" The answer is: in pure action.

Thanks for the thought-provoking (pun intended) videos!

Gassho,

Luigi
ST

[Bokugan]

In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.

Hi Luigi,

I agree -- this was a very thought provoking talk from Jundo . Thank YOU for your thoughts and for sharing that koan as well! That gave me a lot to think about.

Gassho,

Ryan S
Sat Today

[Seikan]

Just wanted to say a heartfelt "thank you" to Jundo for sharing this wonderful series of "beginner" videos. I'm looking forward to working my way through the rest of the series. Regardless of how long I've been practicing, I always find myself drawn back to the basics of Zazen. While the deeper teachings of Dogen and others certainly have their place too (and I do enjoy them), sometimes it really is as simply as just turning off the blender so that the water can become still once again, right?

And call me crazy, but I can't help but think that "Jundo's Blender" would be a great name for either a new Koan or perhaps an alternative rock band. :-)

Gassho,

Rob

--SatToday

[trafalger888]

Thank you to Jundo for this series and for the whole Sangha for their insight into the lessons.
I did #1 today with the blender. Oh my, what a great analogy. I was having this trouble even during sitting today. There are days, for whatever reason that I have times where this is an issue.

I have practiced for a while on my own with no teacher or Sangha so this experience of having these two things is a bit daunting yet refreshing all at the same time. So I am learning and well frankly relearning all at the same time. Something to be grateful for, certainly.

Gassho

Sat Today.

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[adahee]

Jundo,
Regarding the #10 Mirror-mind, if I'm digesting the lesson correctly, I can understand the mirror-mind it two ways:

1) The mirror represents how our minds should process information--without bias. A snake is neither good or evil--it is simply a snake.
2) The mirror represents our senses in that we can never directly experience reality. We are always experiencing the world reflected through our senses.

Either way seems to lead to the roughly the same conclusion.

But Master Dogen's comment, "Just this moment is miscellaneous bits of utter delusion, in hundred thousand myriads of shining mirror reflections," doesn't seem to fit in either of these two understandings.
Am I missing something?

Thanks again for your teachings.

Gassho,
steve
ST/LaH

[Jundo]

Jundo,
Regarding the #10 Mirror-mind, if I'm digesting the lesson correctly, I can understand the mirror-mind it two ways:

1) The mirror represents how our minds should process information--without bias. A snake is neither good or evil--it is simply a snake.
2) The mirror represents our senses in that we can never directly experience reality. We are always experiencing the world reflected through our senses.

Either way seems to lead to the roughly the same conclusion.

But Master Dogen's comment, "Just this moment is miscellaneous bits of utter delusion, in hundred thousand myriads of shining mirror reflections," doesn't seem to fit in either of these two understandings.
Am I missing something?

Thanks again for your teachings.

Gassho,
steve
ST/LaH

Hi Steve,

Most Zen wisdom is not based on an "either/or" way of encountering the world, but is more a way of knowing from simultaneously true perspective(s) (and non-perspective leaping past "perceiver" vs. "perceived" too) at once.

So, for example, the mirror holds all within without judgement, in total non-resistance and equanimity, without separation or distinction of one thing from another ("this" and "that," me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful vs. ugly, etc.) In Zazen, one can sit within this mirror mind of equanimity and non-distinction, with all things both wholly one thing (the boundless mirror), and all things also wholly their own individual thing too shining brightly (each thing in the mirror might be said to also shine as the entire boundless mirror).

That said, our daily life must function as countless bits of shattered mirror broken into this and that, me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful and ugly together. Master Dogen observed that, even so, it is still the same mirror, with each individual shattered thing still wholly one thing (still wholly the boundless mirror) and shining as its own individual thing too (each is still fully holding the entire boundless and unbroken mirror).

For Dogen, it is not simply that we should call the former view of an unbroken mirror "wisdom," and the latter broken world as "ignorance," but we can come to see the wisdom that is always shining as and perfuming the ignorance. To see ignorance and division alone is ignorance, but to see through ignorance and division is wisdom in the guise of ignorance and division, i.e., the ignorance and division is just another face of wisdom and wholeness.

I am not so concerned about this "directly experiencing reality," which is a bit of a false goal that some Zen folks misunderstand. We are always encountering the world as human beings, which means our mental experience of interpreting reality and the models of reality that we create between the ears, and are merely replacing one mental model of reality with experience of what seems a wiser one. To be human, we must live in a world divided, but we can also encounter the mental model of wholeness.

A similar image is within the famous lines of the Genjo Koan:

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.
Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

This language contrasts with another moon reference a little earlier in the Genjo in which we make the mistake as seeing the moon of "Wholeness" and the divided things of the world as separate:

When you see forms or hear sounds, fully engaging body-and-mind, you intuit dharma intimately. [It is then] unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, in which one side is illumined, but the other side is dark.

Instead, the moon is the reflection, the reflection is the moon, and the wholeness of the mirror is never separate from the reflected separate things it holds.

Let me know if that helps.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah