Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

[BevBee]

I am enjoying the talks in Shikantaza meditation videos, something I am already familiar with doing. What I really enjoyed in particular so far, was the blender noise in the first video, then the hammer analogy in the second one. These made me laugh, but they are so realistic about how a beginner actually needs to get the point of understanding how their mind has been operating throughout the day. If I ever get an opportunity to teach meditation again, I would certainly use these tools!

[Kyotai]

I was wondering if anyone knows where to find a particular video Jundo had done years back titled "What's Next.."? I really enjoyed it and wanted to share it with my ango partner.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[Byokan]

Ah, a classic for sure! Here it is Kyotai:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9471-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-WHAT-s-NEXT%21-%21&p=71930&viewfull=1#post71930

Gassho
Byokan
sat + lah

[Kyotai]

Ah, a classic for sure! Here it is Kyotai:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9471-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-WHAT-s-NEXT%21-%21&p=71930&viewfull=1#post71930

Gassho
Byokan
sat + lah

Thank you so much Byokan!

Kyotai
ST

[Tai Shi]

I began with a talk for beginners about non- sitting, sitting, correction of misconception of mysticism, which is not Shikantaza, or not just sitting, is sitting not Stoicism, but just sitting. At 8:30 pm Central USA daylight a.m. sat after reciting robe verse, no one else showed up, sat up out after 20 min. of sitting, time non sitting. My usual sitting unless I'm sitting with a group; then I reflected on my posture sitting upright in straight back chair, legs, feet tucked under chair, checking feet from time to time without breaking Shikantaza, and at the end of my 20 min. no one had shown up on sitting space, so I had sat in proper form in not a Burmese style with feet tucked under chair. Disabilities can be worked with. Ended up on this page listening to beginning of Zazenkai in March, today being Thur. Sept. 19, 2019.

Tai Shi
sat
Gassho

[Marw]

Hello everybody,

I watch an episode almost everyday before I sit. I have already learned that there are some some good sits and on other days some not so good sits. I'm fine with that. It's ok as Jundo would say.

I think I'm not really stretchy so I try to sit in burmese style. But not even there my knees touch the ground. Are there some exercises so that i can reach it? My goal is to sit at some point in the future in lotus style or at least in half lotus. But that doesn't have to be done yet.

The other point I keep thinking about ist the right time to sit. Actually I sit in the evening after I watched a lesson from the Series. But there is the problem that I feel sometimes already a little bit sleepy and it's hard not to fall asleep while I sit. But I don't want to skip it and sit at least one time a day. Because of this is it better to sit in the morning? Or should I sit in the morning as a kind of backup if I can't sit in the evening? Or is it already to much thinking about some irrelevant stuff? ... I thing I confused myself now.

Gassho
Marwin
SatToday

[Jundo]

I think I'm not really stretchy so I try to sit in burmese style. But not even there my knees touch the ground. Are there some exercises so that i can reach it? My goal is to sit at some point in the future in lotus style or at least in half lotus. But that doesn't have to be done yet.

Hi Marwin,

Asia was a more floor based sitting culture, with generally thinner bodies in the past. Don't do the impossible in forcing yourself into extreme position. l know more than a few Buddhist teachers who attribute their knee problems to the Lotus.

That said, we have had a few threads on this, and some other folks may be able to offer advice. l usually sit in Burmese or Half, but once in a long while Full Lotus to honor tradition. l may stop as my knees are getting worse with age.

Also, l strongly advise to read this book ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION

One of our Yoga teachers made the below comment connected to the youtube posted there ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16689-Sat-without-pain-stretches-for-hips&p=235400&viewfull=1#post235400

The other point I keep thinking about ist the right time to sit. Actually I sit in the evening after I watched a lesson from the Series. But there is the problem that I feel sometimes already a little bit sleepy and it's hard not to fall asleep while I sit. But I don't want to skip it and sit at least one time a day. Because of this is it better to sit in the morning? Or should I sit in the morning as a kind of backup if I can't sit in the evening? Or is it already to much thinking about some irrelevant stuff? ... I thing I confused myself now.

More threads to look at Marwin. Generally, it is best to sit when not sleepy, so may you should change time to morning or afternoon if possible. lf not, when sleepy ... just be sleepy.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/search.php?searchid=992507

You will find a few tips in some of those threads, and you must simply find what seems to work for you.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I've reviewed these videos for beginners, and Jundo tells me that there is no problem sitting in straight-back chair. I have severe back and knee problems, and for me I've even sat in easy chair, and lying on operating table just before going under for an operation. Jundo tells me that sitting is possible in nearly any position though admittedly some positions are much easier. I'm a beginner even though I've been sitting for 5 years. Shikantaza means just sitting and I've found this is as much just sitting or just reclining, or just reclining fully.
Tai Shi
Gassho
sat

[Shokai]

It's approximately 350 feet from our house to the corner store. When i first moved here five years ago at age 78 I could usually take maybe two or three minutes to get there. Now, due to knee damage, it takes over five minutes. I say to myself, "Dam, I look like an old man." And, I must admit the pain is excruciating. I used to sit Zazen in the half lotus position up until three years ago when it became very painful to sit that way. Now I sit Zazen preferably in a straight back chair without arms. It seems very uncomfortable to have my elbows up high like that because my shoulders become hunched and painful. But hey, I'm already three years older than Buddha and still enjoying every good day. As Yogi Berra would have said, "Life is 90% attitude, the other half is just showing up!"

bows in gassho, Shokai

stlah
p.s. As to Jundo's comment

with generally thinner bodies in the past.

He was being very kind by invoking the myth that Japanese are very petite. Owing to the swift world wide explosion of fast food diets, modern Japanese body style is much the same as everywhere else. Having had the experience of embalming over 3000 Japanese bodies, thin, obese, muscular or not, I can truthfully say, their hips were much more open than westerners and it is attributable to sitting cross legged on the ground from day one. Westerner's illio-psoas muscles are in general, tighter than drum strings as a result of the way we sit.

[Onka]

Hello everybody,

I watch an episode almost everyday before I sit. I have already learned that there are some some good sits and on other days some not so good sits. I'm fine with that. It's ok as Jundo would say.

I think I'm not really stretchy so I try to sit in burmese style. But not even there my knees touch the ground. Are there some exercises so that i can reach it? My goal is to sit at some point in the future in lotus style or at least in half lotus. But that doesn't have to be done yet.

The other point I keep thinking about ist the right time to sit. Actually I sit in the evening after I watched a lesson from the Series. But there is the problem that I feel sometimes already a little bit sleepy and it's hard not to fall asleep while I sit. But I don't want to skip it and sit at least one time a day. Because of this is it better to sit in the morning? Or should I sit in the morning as a kind of backup if I can't sit in the evening? Or is it already to much thinking about some irrelevant stuff? ... I thing I confused myself now.

Gassho
Marwin
SatToday

Hey Marwin

Welcome to Treeleaf. I'm a new practitioner and also not very stretchy but was told by anyone I've ever asked that I should sit however I can sit. Mostly I sit in a comfortable lounge chair, sometimes sitting up but more often reclined. I often 'sit' lying down either on my back or on my side. If I'm really feeling ok I sit leaning against a tree in the bush. Sitting is sitting... The important thing is to sit. Oh yeah, give yourself permission to sit however long you can on a particular day whether 5 minutes or 5 hours. Again just sit. Every day I sit at 4am. I always set my meditation timer for 45 minutes but mostly only make it to between 15 and 30 minutes. This morning was only 10 minutes because my spine was sore but it was a good quality 10 minutes but again, I sat.
Be kind to yourself comrade.

Gassho
Anna

Sat today/Lent a hand

[Jundo]

p.s. As to Jundo's comment He was being very kind by invoking the myth that Japanese are very petite. Owing to the swift world wide explosion of fast food diets, modern Japanese body style is much the same as everywhere else. Having had the experience of embalming over 3000 Japanese bodies, thin, obese, muscular or not, I can truthfully say, their hips were much more open than westerners and it is attributable to sitting cross legged on the ground from day one. Westerner's illio-psoas muscles are in general, tighter than drum strings as a result of the way we sit.

This is fascinating, and I hope that I may requote you on this to some other Zen folk.

We will dedicate a part of our Zazenkai tomorrow with Kyonin to all the folks with creaky knees, hips and backs.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Byokan]

Hi Marwin,

sounds like you're on the right track. I would caution you to be careful with those knees! Yoga is a great exercise to prepare the body for sitting, but again, use caution. A good teacher is the best thing if you want to try to increase your flexibility. Nothing wrong with Burmese. I used to sit Lotus, but then I got fat like a Buddha and now it's Burmese for me. What's important is finding a position that allows you to sit with stability, and the minimum of effort, while remaining alert.

You didn't say what you sit on? I wonder if sitting a little higher, and/or a little more forward, would help the knees to touch the floor for more stability? Think tripod: three points of contact to spread your weight and allow good balance and stability. Like Jundo says, you have to experiment and find the best way for you. Remember, you have the rest of your life to refine your sitting position, so no need to hurry or force anything.

You're already doing the hardest part, which is sitting every day! Go ahead and try a few morning sits if you like, and see how you do. A daily 15 minute (or more if you have time) sit in the morning would be good "insurance" as you say, and makes a great start to the day. There's no better or worse time, really, what counts is the consistency, so find the time that's best for you and let it become a natural part of your day.

Enjoy your sitting

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Marw]

Thank you all for your answers.

Yes, maybe I think about my sitting position too much. Shame on me. it's just that I've never been physically impaired in any situation until now. Probably I've to lern that these situations exist. But that's what I'm here for - to learn and to develop further.
Or maybe I'm just to fat.
No matter that the real reason is, I will do what you do. Sit everyday in a comfortable position.

Also, l strongly advise to read this book ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-OF-MEDITATION

Thanks for the book tip Jundo.
I would read it. But at the moment I've started to read "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" from Shunryu Suzuki. After I finished I will start the next one.

More threads to look at Marwin. Generally, it is best to sit when not sleepy, so may you should change time to morning or afternoon if possible. lf not, when sleepy ... just be sleepy.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/search.php?searchid=992507

You will find a few tips in some of those threads, and you must simply find what seems to work for you.

Unfortunately, the link doesn't work. But I have listend to your advice. At the beginning I sit in the evening to get a clear mind without the thoughts of the day. The last days I sat in the morning after getting up even before breakfast. I must say it feels good. I will try to make it a habit.

We will dedicate a part of our Zazenkai tomorrow with Kyonin to all the folks with creaky knees, hips and backs.

I will try to be there. But 3 am is a little early. So maybe I'll take a look at the recording later.

You didn't say what you sit on? I wonder if sitting a little higher, and/or a little more forward, would help the knees to touch the floor for more stability? Think tripod: three points of contact to spread your weight and allow good balance and stability. Like Jundo says, you have to experiment and find the best way for you. Remember, you have the rest of your life to refine your sitting position, so no need to hurry or force anything.

I sit on a yoga pillow filled with buckwheat fur. After I read your tip I've filled it a little more. And what should I say it's better know. My knees get to the ground without any pain.

So thank you all again for your help and tips and stories and all of it. I feel very comfortable here thanks to you.

Gassho
Marwin
SatbetterToday

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo, for having these talks up. For Ango, I'm listening to a sit-a-longs followed by fifteen minutes sitting. I listened to the Sit-a-longs a few years ago Listening to them again has renewed my practice.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/LAH

[Hokin]

Hello Sangha!
I have a little question...:
The thing is...I try sit Zazen every time I can...but at least I sit once in the morning before anything else and once befor going to sleep...
Now...these, you should have guessed, are my "principal" sittings during my every day...
The "problem"(and I don't know if I should call it like that, actually...and you'll find out why...) is that since two months ago my family and I moved to live in a new house for rent which has a very "loud" neighborhood (and remember, especially if you don't know firsthand, that the word "loud" here in Mexico has a superpowerful connotation, given the fact that here everybody can do what he or she pleases without bothering if that could ever be "irrespectful" towards other's situation...and anyway police won't do...if you thought of it).
So...the thing is they (Yes, "they", because there are so many!) play music and shout and make any possible noise imaginable (I mean it...I am not overdoing anything!)...and almost all day long, but especially at those times when I actually can sit Zazen.
Now...I am just sticking to Zazen and going through all that and my emotions and opinions and breathing and letting go, breathing, accepting, embracing, breathing and just sitting...just sitting with Mexican popular music playing loud just outside the window and the shouts and the loud talk...and there I am...just sitting...with all that...and even so...just trying to keep Zazen easy and pure "just sitting" with no thought of gain or expectations about it at all...and I sometimes actually "succeed" in wholeheartedly accepting and being one with it.
Actually I feel that it all is making me every time a little bit more tolerant and open to welcome (or at least accept) "what I don't like".
As Yoka Daishi wrote: "A lotus lives in the midst of the fire". (Kind of, we could say, I'm trying to fake the lotus until I make it!)
But in the meanwhile still persists a more or less "strong" resistance in me, specially at times, and a certain kind of doubt concerning if I am actually doing it right...but the thing is, I don't or can't see many alternatives.
One could be, "I quit practicing Zazen"(and to that I firmly answer a rotund "NO, NEVER! ")
The other is "Change house"...but who will convince my wife?! (Careful if you ever give it a try...! Lol)
And the other is I can play some kind of stuff such as "nature sounds" track on the stereo and sort of half-drown the noise outside...which i tried...but then I feel as though I were running away from the truth of the here and now and that i doubt is "the Way"...so I keep it "natural"(which doesn't mean birds and singing wind throuh pines, but "Mexican Town" "natural" kind of stuff...i.e.: ranch music and yelling drunkards and so on...don't know if I should cry or laugh out loud...I prefer the latter...)
Now...there is so much more that could (and maybe "should") be said...but I'll leave it at that...i hope i am made mysel clear...for now...
I genuinely trust your intuition and experience (even though not everybody among you has ever dealt with Mexico...I guess)...
I just want to know your thougts/advises/suggestions/guidance with respect to this situation I'm facing with in this period of my life/practice (And now more than ever I sense how these two are so inseparably linked!...and maybe that's the answer...but I want to receive feedback from you...some different opinions and reflections about it all...)

Thank you beforehand.

Gassho.
Arya.
ST&LAH.