Split Thread: "Freedom of Art Expression" v. "No Politics" Rule at Treeleaf

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  • Meitou
    Member
    • Feb 2017
    • 1656

    #31
    Kotei, thank you for your kind words, you, Jishin, Kokuu and all who have contributed here will always be practicing art, both with Anne and myself and without us, because the circle is formed.
    I'll try to be brief. There seems to be a lack of definition here between what constitutes 'politics', and how it differs from 'party politics'.
    No-one can escape politics as long as they are breathing. Politics govern our every waking - and sleeping - moment. Even to get to this forum - the devices we use, the internet provider, the search engines, the website hosts - all of these things are governed directly or indirectly by political decisions - and in the main part, the huge companies we all think of as homogenous and international, are at heart, American. Google, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Facebook etc.
    For those of us who aren't straight white males, politics govern our basic rights, the amount of jurisdiction we have over our own bodies, how we are allowed to define our sexuality, who we can marry. Some of us have been fighting against those oppressions and for the rights of others since we could do joined up writing, politics before we knew the meaning of the word. Some of us can vote in our countries elections, some of us, including myself, cannot - that's politics.
    On this forum we have threads that are engaging with ecology and the destruction of our environment - politics plays, and will continue to play, a major role in how that progresses. We have threads relating to how we engage with racism, and how we engage with those of us who aren't straight white males, even to the extent of revisiting our vows and discussing how we can be more aware and inclusive - thanks to politics.
    I fully understand and support that this is not the place for party politics. But here's the rub. If someone came here, last week, today, tomorrow, and said Oh help I don't know who to vote for../ Jeez how could a Buddhist vote for../ I would ask you all to support.../ - yes, I agree, that is at best irrelevant and at worst divisive. Lots of other places to engage with those questions.
    But if someone came here and said Oh I feel so anxious and confused about the upcoming elections/ I'm so worried about my kids future I can't practice/ I don't know how to practice amongst all this political turmoil/I'm so freaking angry right about what's going on right now I can't sit/ I don't know how to reconcile my vows with how I'm feeling about the political situation - people that's a whole different ball game. And not to provide space for people to reach out in that way is a failure. It's not fulfilling our vows to be compassionate, it isn't socially engaged Buddhism. But you know what, ok, because as I posted elsewhere, other Sanghas and every Dharma related publication that drops into my email box have had a lot of wonderful advice and support for those in need- and I know there have been people here in need of that.
    But please Treeleaf, to deny just one small moment represented by one sweet and harmless photo, one small taste of the momentous events that are taking place right now, to deny that moment in an otherwise totally awful and utterly joyless year, that is more of a statement than the photo itself.( And I apologise wholeheartedly to all of those reading this for whom that photo represented an ocassion that has now made their year joyless.)
    And as someone who isn't a straight, white male, I feel sad that even after the work we've done with introducing the women's and differently abled ancestors lineage, and that we are reading and applauding a book dedicated to lost female voices, that there is no place here to just briefly honour the historic, immense and for many, life changing, achievement of one woman yesterday, but perhaps I just did that, ha.
    I can't speak for Anne, but I do know we share the same thoughts on much of what I've said, and I would suggest with the greatest respect, that this is a good time for us to step away from curating the Art Circle. As Jundo says, hosts aren't needed - art is like water, it flows through the cracks in everything and will always find a voice.
    Gassho
    Meitou
    sat
    Edit: ugh sorry for taking up so much space and time
    Last edited by Meitou; 11-08-2020, 10:34 AM.
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

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    • Jinyo
      Member
      • Jan 2012
      • 1957

      #32
      Difficult discussion and I can see the point of view from both sides.

      So - I'll try to answer from an art point of view. As a viewer we automatically put our own interpretations on images/works of art - symbols speak to us.
      As a viewer belonging to an art forum I'm not primarily judging the image from a political point of view but I can see that prominent personalities/hats/flags etc
      might be interpreted that way. But as long as there's not any really offensive image being posted surely the whole pageant of life should be allowed on an art forum?
      We have this group to express our creativity on many levels - IMHO the calm acceptance of difference can only be polished amidst difference. As long as no one is proselytizing I'm happy
      to be challenged, made to think and appreciate views different to my own as expressed through art.

      I would be very sad if Ann and Meitou stand down,



      Will be sitting for remembrance Sunday here in the UK in a few hours

      Sorry Meitou - your post coincided with mine. I really understand where you're coming from but feel there are two connected/but different issues and maybe we should repost to the main message board?
      Last edited by Jinyo; 11-08-2020, 11:32 AM.

      Comment

      • Ryumon
        Member
        • Apr 2007
        • 1815

        #33
        I'm late to this, having avoided the forum for the past two weeks because of my anxiety about the election.

        I have mixed feelings about all this. On the one hand, if someone posted a photo that _they took_ of the Bidens, or of Trump, I might consider that art. Or if someone posted photos that had _artistic value_, taken by someone else, _and crediting the photographer_, that would be different. But here, the posting of photos just as sort of - pardon the expression - pissing on benches to make a point doesn't seem to belong in a forum entitled "Expressing creativity."

        Yes, we are all political, and politics is everywhere, but I feel that there is a deliberate attempt to subvert the rules that have been made clear in the forum about leaving politics at the door. These are difficult times, and there is no point inflaming things that are outside the purview of these forums.

        Gassho,

        Kirk

        sat
        I know nothing.

        Comment

        • Meitou
          Member
          • Feb 2017
          • 1656

          #34
          Originally posted by Jinyo
          Difficult discussion and I can see the point of view from both sides.


          Sorry Meitou - your post coincided with mine. I really understand where you're coming from but feel there are two connected/but different issues and maybe we should repost to the main message board?
          I'm not interested in discussing it further to be honest, I just stated my point of view, which is no more valid than anyone else's. I'm not looking for validation, approval or anything else, I won't be changing my mind because this is something I've been thinking about for a long, long time. I don't want it to be an issue and the more people weigh in, the more diffused the topic becomes. I think a line should be drawn here, and that be an end to it.
          As Jundo says, this isn't a democracy, he makes the rules and they have to be respected.
          Gassho
          Meitou
          sattoday lah
          命 Mei - life
          島 Tou - island

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40783

            #35
            Originally posted by Meitou
            I'm not interested in discussing it further to be honest, I just stated my point of view, which is no more valid than anyone else's. I'm not looking for validation, approval or anything else, I won't be changing my mind because this is something I've been thinking about for a long, long time. I don't want it to be an issue and the more people weigh in, the more diffused the topic becomes. I think a line should be drawn here, and that be an end to it.
            As Jundo says, this isn't a democracy, he makes the rules and they have to be respected.
            Gassho
            Meitou
            sattoday lah
            I will address your comments in a separate discussion.

            Sorry this is long ... Many folks come to a Zen group expecting some combination of spa, therapy session, vegan cooking class, Yoga retreat, Latte Liberal political gathering, episode of Oprah. Many Buddhist Sangha, realizing that people will pay well for such things, give their well-healed (meaning almost anyone in a 1st
            Last edited by Jundo; 11-08-2020, 03:45 PM.
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Cooperix
              Member
              • Nov 2013
              • 502

              #36
              Every person who has, over the past few years, contributed to the Art Forum I bow in gratitude. There is so much wonderful creative energy in Treeleaf.
              It has truly been a humbling and enjoyable experience hosting, along with Meitou this past year, these discussions.

              But as Jundo has so succinctly pointed out we are dispensable and you can and will continue to post your wonderful work for all to enjoy whether we are here or not.

              I am committed to art, it is my career and my passion. Please if you want to share a project with me please contact me. I am dedicated to encouraging creativity. From the beginning of my tenure, I wanted to make it clear that we are ALL creative creatures whether we make music, words, dance, photos, visual arts, cooking, gardens. And that is something to celebrate.

              I am sorry that these 'political' differences seems to have caused bad feelings and hurt. This horrid year has left me raw and stressed and I have found my art practice has been a real respite place. As I long for a place of solace.

              I truly have loved my time on the forum and am grateful to Jundo for his trust in me...

              Keep making art!

              Bowing in gratitude to you all!
              Anne

              ~lahst~

              Comment

              • Meitou
                Member
                • Feb 2017
                • 1656

                #37
                Originally posted by Cooperix
                Every person who has, over the past few years, contributed to the Art Forum I bow in gratitude. There is so much wonderful creative energy in Treeleaf.
                It has truly been a humbling and enjoyable experience hosting, along with Meitou this past year, these discussions.

                But as Jundo has so succinctly pointed out we are dispensable and you can and will continue to post your wonderful work for all to enjoy whether we are here or not.

                I am committed to art, it is my career and my passion. Please if you want to share a project with me please contact me. I am dedicated to encouraging creativity. From the beginning of my tenure, I wanted to make it clear that we are ALL creative creatures whether we make music, words, dance, photos, visual arts, cooking, gardens. And that is something to celebrate.

                I am sorry that these 'political' differences seems to have caused bad feelings and hurt. This horrid year has left me raw and stressed and I have found my art practice has been a real respite place. As I long for a place of solace.

                I truly have loved my time on the forum and am grateful to Jundo for his trust in me...

                Keep making art!

                Bowing in gratitude to you all!
                Anne

                ~lahst~
                I second that emotion!
                Gassho
                Meitou
                sattoday lah
                命 Mei - life
                島 Tou - island

                Comment

                • Jakuden
                  Member
                  • Jun 2015
                  • 6141

                  #38
                  Originally posted by kirkmc
                  I'm late to this, having avoided the forum for the past two weeks because of my anxiety about the election.

                  I have mixed feelings about all this. On the one hand, if someone posted a photo that _they took_ of the Bidens, or of Trump, I might consider that art. Or if someone posted photos that had _artistic value_, taken by someone else, _and crediting the photographer_, that would be different. But here, the posting of photos just as sort of - pardon the expression - pissing on benches to make a point doesn't seem to belong in a forum entitled "Expressing creativity."

                  Yes, we are all political, and politics is everywhere, but I feel that there is a deliberate attempt to subvert the rules that have been made clear in the forum about leaving politics at the door. These are difficult times, and there is no point inflaming things that are outside the purview of these forums.

                  Gassho,

                  Kirk

                  sat
                  Exactly, Kirk, we are not even supposed to repost photos in the "Random Photos" group--the photos are supposed to be original works there. I presume the original intent was to avoid it becoming Facebook at Treeleaf. Why was the reposted picture of a political figure in this thread so important to a Zen arts group? IMO, it wasn't--it was placed here to start conflict, and it did so, very effectively.

                  Gassho,
                  Jakuden
                  SatToday

                  Comment

                  • Jishin
                    Member
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 4821

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Jakuden
                    Exactly, Kirk, we are not even supposed to repost photos in the "Random Photos" group--the photos are supposed to be original works there. I presume the original intent was to avoid it becoming Facebook at Treeleaf. Why was the reposted picture of a political figure in this thread so important to a Zen arts group? IMO, it wasn't--it was placed here to start conflict, and it did so, very effectively.

                    Gassho,
                    Jakuden
                    SatToday
                    You are projecting as this is what your intent would have been. You are not a mind reader Jakuden.

                    Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

                    Comment

                    • Onka
                      Member
                      • May 2019
                      • 1576

                      #40
                      The real discussion should be about whether moccasin's are a shoe or a slipper.
                      Gassho
                      Onka
                      ST
                      穏 On (Calm)
                      火 Ka (Fires)
                      They/She.

                      Comment

                      • Jakuden
                        Member
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 6141

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Jishin
                        You are projecting as this is what your intent would have been. You are not a mind reader Jakuden.

                        Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
                        [emoji23] Ya got me there, yes the secret intent of my every post is to create conflict on the forum. I’ve been going about it all wrong!

                        Gassho
                        Jakuden
                        SatToday


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

                        Comment

                        • Jishin
                          Member
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 4821

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Jakuden
                          [emoji23] Ya got me there, yes the secret intent of my every post is to create conflict on the forum. I’ve been going about it all wrong!

                          Gassho
                          Jakuden
                          SatToday


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                          I think this picture says it best. What do you see? Whatever you see is wrong. We should proceed with this in mind.

                          Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40783

                            #43
                            But as Jundo has so succinctly pointed out we are dispensable
                            I NEVER said anyone is dispensable and, quite the contrary, you have been doing amazing things here. It is just my policy not to chase people into Treeleaf, nor to chase after folks who wish to go. You are the one who said you are going.

                            However, sorry, while it is a fine line and I believe in art freedom, this was an end run by Jishin around the "no politics" rule of our Sangha, with a dog picture that "just happened," he never noticed, to have a political candidate sitting there.

                            After sitting with and sleeping on this overnight, I have decided to delete the picture as well as the national flag pictures and MAGA hat pictures. Sorry, Jishin. We leave support of particular candidates and national flags at the door here. Thank you.

                            Sorry to run long.

                            Gassho, Jundo

                            STLah
                            Last edited by Jundo; 11-08-2020, 11:39 PM.
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • Jishin
                              Member
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 4821

                              #44
                              No problem Jundo, you have to do what you think is best for the Sangha. I had to look up the meaning of "end run" as per Wikipedia:

                              ...In gridiron football, an end run is a running play in which the player carrying the ball tries to avoid being tackled by running outside the end (or flank) of the offensive line.[1] It is distinct from a dive, which is a run "up the middle", or an off-tackle run, which is a run through the inside gap created by the offensive tackle...

                              I think that we create the world with our minds and in this case a story has been created with many different interpretations.


                              Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

                              Comment

                              • Jundo
                                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                                • Apr 2006
                                • 40783

                                #45
                                I have deleted the photos of candidates, national flags as well as the MAGA hats posted by me.

                                I have kept the pictures of the rainbow flags because they actually contain both the Buddhist "rainbow flag" and the LGBT+ rainbow flag (which, by the way, are not the same flag. They just happen to both be rainbow flags, the former representing all the many flavors of Buddhism as the colors associated with the below meanings) In our Sangha, the LGBT+ rainbow flag is not considered a political statement as much as a statement of non-discriminatory social policy in keeping with our Vows, Precepts, Wisdom and Compassion. It is a fine line, but those flags of inclusivity ... not nationalism and separation ... are tolerated here.

                                About the Buddhist flag (there are actually some variations, and Japan has its own version a little different):

                                The flag was originally designed in 1885 by the Colombo Committee, in Colombo, Ceylon ... At the 1952 World Fellowship of Buddhists, the flag of Buddhists was adopted as the International Buddhist Flag. ... The flag's six vertical bands represent the six colors of the aura which Buddhists believe emanated from the body of the Buddha when he attained Enlightenment:[6][1]

                                Blue (Pāli and Sanskrit: nīla): The Spirit of Universal Compassion

                                Yellow (Pāli and Sanskrit: pīta): The Middle Way

                                Red (Pāli and Sanskrit: lohitaka): The Blessings of Practice – achievement, wisdom, virtue, fortune and dignity

                                White (Pāli: odāta; Sanskrit: avadāta): The Purity of Dhamma – leading to liberation, timeless

                                Orange (Pāli: mañjeṭṭha; Sanskrit: mañjiṣṭhā - alternatively scarlet): The Wisdom of the Buddha's teachings

                                The sixth vertical band, on the fly, is made up of a combination of the five other colors' rectangular bands, and represents a compound of said colors in the aura's spectrum. This new, compound color is referred to as the Truth of the Buddha's teaching or Pabbhassara ('essence of light').



                                In Japan, there is a traditional Buddhist flag (五色幕—goshikimaku) which has different colors but is sometimes merged with the design of the international flag to represent international cooperation.[citation needed]
                                The Japanese Jōdo Shinshū replaces the orange stripe with pink.[citation needed]
                                In Tibet, the stripes' colors represent the different colors of Buddhist robes comprehensively united in one banner. Tibetan monastic robes are maroon, so the orange stripes in the original design are often replaced with maroon.[citation needed]
                                Tibetan Buddhists in Nepal replace the orange stripes with plum stripes.[citation needed]
                                Theravāda Buddhists in Myanmar replace orange with pink, the color of the robe of the country's bhikkhunīs.[citation needed]
                                Theravāda Buddhists in Thailand opt the usage of a yellow flag with a red dhammacakka; it is sometimes paired with the international Buddhist flag.[citation needed]
                                Soka Gakkai uses a tricolor of blue, yellow, and red.[7] It is often mistaken to the flag of Romania.

                                Japanese version:

                                Personally, I don't really believe that we need a "Buddhist Flag" because, although inclusive of Buddhists, perhaps still dividing from others. Hmmm.

                                Sorry to have written long.

                                Gassho, J

                                STLah
                                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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