Split Thread: "Freedom of Art Expression" v. "No Politics" Rule at Treeleaf

[Onka]

No problem Jundo, you have to do what you think is best for the Sangha. I had to look up the meaning of "end run" as per Wikipedia:

...In gridiron football, an end run is a running play in which the player carrying the ball tries to avoid being tackled by running outside the end (or flank) of the offensive line.[1] It is distinct from a dive, which is a run "up the middle", or an off-tackle run, which is a run through the inside gap created by the offensive tackle...

I think that we create the world with our minds and in this case a story has been created with many different interpretations.


Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Not intending to derail things but the story I've created involves Green Bay winning the Superbowl. Alas I think that without Clay Matthews and with Aaron Rodgers getting older it will be some time before my story becomes a reality. #GoPackGo
In other news I'm still waiting for someone to commit to moccasin's being slippers or shoes...
Gassho
Onka
ST/tried to play the diffusing card.

[Jishin]

Not intending to derail things but the story I've created involves Green Bay winning the Superbowl. Alas I think that without Clay Matthews and with Aaron Rodgers getting older it will be some time before my story becomes a reality. #GoPackGo
In other news I'm still waiting for someone to commit to moccasin's being slippers or shoes...
Gassho
Onka
ST/tried to play the diffusing card.

I commit to shoes.

[Onka]

I have deleted the photos of candidates, national flags as well as the MAGA hats posted by me.

I have kept the pictures of the rainbow flags because they actually contain both the Buddhist "rainbow flag" and the LGBT+ rainbow flag (which, by the way, are not the same flag. They just happen to both be rainbow flags, the former representing all the many flavors of Buddhism as the colors associated with the below meanings) In our Sangha, the LGBT+ rainbow flag is not considered a political statement as much as a statement of non-discriminatory social policy in keeping with our Vows, Precepts, Wisdom and Compassion. It is a fine line, but those flags of inclusivity ... not nationalism and separation ... are tolerated here.

About the Buddhist flag (there are actually some variations, and Japan has its own version a little different):



Personally, I don't really believe that we need a "Buddhist Flag" because, although inclusive of Buddhists, perhaps still dividing from others. Hmmm.

Sorry to have written long.

Gassho, J

STLah

At risk of being banned again I have to say sorry Jundo but the rainbow flag is extremely political, as political and beyond social policy for many Queer folk as the black flag is for those of us not into party politics. Many have been murdered for it just as people have been murdered for the Star of David, Palestinian and Anarchist flags.
With respect
Gassho
Onka
ST
Not trying to cause trouble just clarifying.

[Jundo]

In other news I'm still waiting for someone to commit to moccasin's being slippers or shoes...

Onka, your asking the question is culturally appropriating.

(Actually, I am not opening a serious discussion of that, just make a little snide attempt at humor to lighten things).

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

At risk of being banned again I have to say sorry Jundo but the rainbow flag is extremely political, as political and beyond social policy for many Queer folk as the black flag is for those of us not into party politics. Many have been murdered for it just as people have been murdered for the Star of David, Palestinian and Anarchist flags.

I know that the LGBTQ+ rainbow flag is political and folks have struggled and died for it ... but I would still put it as primarily a symbol of unity, equality, coming together, human rights that places it in a category with, I feel, the "peace sign" flag, the Red Cross flag or the UN flag (some who are against world governance would disagree with me about the latter). The Israeli flag, Palestinian flag, Hammer & Sickle, Anarchist flags, US flag etc. are primarily politics and/or nationalism.

It is a fine line, but that is why the rainbow flag or Red Cross flag etc. would be okay here.



Gassho, J

STLah

[Koushi]

The real discussion should be about whether moccasin's are a shoe or a slipper.
Gassho
Onka
ST

As a Native American might I provide the third option of “both”? Depending on which part of the country/landscape you’re in, it could be a more hard leather shoe type or soft sole slipperish type.

Gassho,
Jesse
ST

[Jishin]

I know that the LGBTQ+ rainbow flag is political and folks have struggled and died for it ... but I would still put it as primarily a symbol of unity, equality, coming together, human rights that places it in a category with, I feel, the "peace sign" flag, the Red Cross flag or the UN flag (some who are against world governance would disagree with me about the latter). The Israeli flag, Palestinian flag, Hammer & Sickle, Anarchist flags, US flag etc. are primarily politics and/or nationalism.

It is a fine line, but that is why the rainbow flag or Red Cross flag etc. would be okay here.



Gassho, J

STLah

There are problems with symbols and its interpretations. Take the following images as an example:



JUNDO: GRAPHIC HOLOCAUST IMAGEs REMOVED DUE TO REPORTS OF BEING TRIGGERING TO SOME MEMBERS

How should we interpret the Star of David?

Gassho, Jishin, STLah

[Jundo]

Yes.

We are about peace and against violence, discrimination, ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is from our Vows and Precepts, Ahimsa and such.

Did you doubt that, Jishin? Your pictures do not shock, for they are the very Samsara, sometimes so ugly, we are here to see through and live in peace within as best we can.

The Star of David on a camp uniform is not a flag, but the very symbol of "we are different, you are different" that flags represent. The Nazis sure loved their flags!



Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

EXPRESSING CREATIVITY: Media Arts - photography, videography, photo collage, etc.

Yes.

We are about peace and against violence, discrimination, ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is from our Vows and Precepts, Ahimsa and such.

Did you doubt that, Jishin? Your pictures do not shock, for they are the very Samsara, sometimes so ugly, we are here to see through and live in peace within as best we can.

The Star of David on a camp uniform is not a flag, but the very symbol of "we are different, you are different" that flags represent. The Nazi sure loved their flags!



Gassho, J

STLah

The Israeli flag means a lot of things to different people. It is a place of comfort and peace for people to go to during time of suffering and this is why you see it everywhere. To minimize its importance in anyway or fashion is to deny millions relief from suffering. Ponder this: poof - no more flag. What now? Where do we put the millions of Jews in Israel or the millions of Jews world wide that now have no place to go?

I personally have an interest in the flag as I am an involuntary member of the tribe of Judah. This also makes me an Israeli Citizen the moment I set foot in Israel. The same goes for you. My great grandfather was murdered in Dachau and my great grandmother and grandmother have the middle name of “Sara” which was a gift from Hitler to more easily identify German Jews. My children would be murdered too in Hitler’s Germany and so would yours.

Regarding symbolism of the clothing that I wear, I don’t generally wear republican or democratic clothing. On occasion I wear gay friendly symbolism as my father was gay and we have several friends that are gay and we are supportive. Regarding Buddhist symbolism, well, my whole torso is a Buddha tattoo. My right arm, the one that can not be hidden well has a prominent Star of David which has served a reminder to honor my heritage. As I told you privately, I have also picked up more of an interest in Judaism and have been studying from a historical and intellectual perspective the roots of our people. Israel means “struggle with god” so Judaism is perfectly compatible with Soto Zen.

I wish you would be more respectful of the Israeli flag. It does not mean what you think it means.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jundo]

Ponder this: poof - no more flag. What now? Where do we put the millions of Jews in Israel or the millions of Jews world wide that now have no place to go?

Who says I am not respectful of the Israeli flag? I lost relatives in the Holocaust too. I hope Jews have a place where they can go, Palestinians have a place where they can go. we all have a safe place where we can safely go. Please go plant a tree in Israel, protest the treatment of Palestinians if you wish, and raise as many flags as you wish. Who is stopping anyone from doing so?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/05/israeli-forces-leave-41-children-homeless-after-razing-palestinian-village-un-says

Just not in this Sangha, where we step beyond flags and borders, me vs. you, to know another kind of peace and union.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

Who says I am not respectful of the Israeli flag? I lost relatives in the Holocaust too. I hope Jews have a place where they can go, Palestinians have a place where they can go. we all have a safe place where we can safely go. Please go plant a tree in Israel, protest the treatment of Palestinians if you wish, and raise as many flags as you wish. Who is stopping anyone from doing so?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/05/israeli-forces-leave-41-children-homeless-after-razing-palestinian-village-un-says

Just not in this Sangha, where we step beyond flags and borders, me vs. you, to know another kind of peace and union.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Several photos that you took down had a symbol of an Israeli flag that I wear in my day to day activities. You have placed a higher value on some symbols than others (devaluated the Israeli flag) by chosing wich ones to take down.

Regarding the middle east history and solution: it's complicated and a work in progress but you certainly should not make things worse by taking away Israel (the Israeli flag).

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Several photos that you took down had a symbol of an Israeli flag that I wear in my day to day activities. You have placed a higher value on some symbols than others (devaluated the Israeli flag) by chosing wich ones to take down.

Regarding the middle east history and solution: it's complicated and a work in progress but you certainly should not make things worse by taking away Israel (the Israeli flag).

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

I did not take it away. The flag still is there, just not here. And, outside this Sangha and its pictures, you are free to wear and not wear what you wish.

Yes, I take down some symbols and not others, that is correct. Please post all the peace signs and rainbow flags that you wish (so long as they are not a national flag).

I left your wonderful son's "Shalom" shirt because "Shalom" = "Salam" = Peace.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

I did not take it away. The flag still is there, just not here. And, outside this Sangha and its pictures, you are free to wear and not wear what you wish.

Yes, I take down some symbols and not others, that is correct. Please post all the peace signs and rainbow flags that you wish (so long as they are not a national flag).

I left your wonderful son's "Shalom" shirt because "Shalom" = "Salam" = Peace.

Gassho, J

STLah

Ok. Here is some Shalom for you.

Time to go to bed.

!שלום

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Lovely Shaloms, Jishim, and no problem with those at all.

But the Legend of Zelda shirt is not allowed, as the game openly supports the kingdom of Hyrule in its battle for liberation from Ganon, the evil warlord demon. Too political, not to mention discriminatory against evil warlord demons. Also, in the upper left corner of the shirt, a flag with the Hylean crest can clearly be seen surrounding a weapon of violence. In a Zendo, we are beyond Zelda.



Make Hyrule Great Again!

(just kidding)

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

Lovely Shaloms, Jishim, and no problem with those at all.

But the Legend of Zelda shirt is not allowed, as the game openly supports the kingdom of Hyrule in its battle for liberation from Ganon, the evil warlord demon. Too political, not to mention discriminatory against evil warlord demons. Also, in the upper left corner of the shirt, a flag with the Hylean crest can clearly be seen surrounding a weapon of violence. In a Zendo, we are beyond Hyrule vs. Ganon.



Make Hyrule Great Again!

(just kidding)

Gassho, J

STLah

This post just brought me great joy.


Evan,
Sat today, lah