WHAT IS ZEN? - Chap 2 Zazen - To P. 17

[Geika]

Norman Fischer:

"...[It] does matter that you sit up straight, with full human dignity... But you can also sit up straight on a chair or bench. Sometimes people with injuries can't sit up straight. If so, then you sit in whatever way you can... So whatever posture, you pay attention to it as it is."

But if it was written like this I don't think it would bother people as much:

"...[It] does matter that you sit up straight, [if you can]... But you can also sit up straight on a chair or bench. Sometimes people with injuries can't sit up straight. If so, then you sit in whatever way you can... So whatever posture, you pay attention to it as it is [with full human dignity.]"

I only changed a couple of things. I think the problem here is that this book is an interview.

The question was: "How important is it to do zazen in full or half lotus? Does it really matter what position you sit in?"

This being an interview, he probably thought at first of a physically fit person who did not think that posture mattered much, to whom the given answer would be fitting: to deter them from apathy.

The questioner herself, Susan Moon, did not think to ask on behalf of disabled people, he accounted for them himself in his answer. I think that shows a lot more thoughtfulness on his part than is immediately construed.

I can see what he meant, despite the format.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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[AlanLa]

Just sit dropping concepts of straight and dignity, Fischer and Moon, interview and instructions. If it offends you, then just sit with the "you" who finds offense. Just sit. I did.

Look, as far as I am concerned, people take the sitting part of zazen way too literally. The essential instruction on zazen is what you do with your head, not your body. About the only physical instructions I can follow are to actually be sitting down with my hands in the mudra and looking straight ahead, so I tend to skim over all the other instructions because they don't apply to me, but I still do zazen. Did Fischer use some ableist language? Yes. Did that matter to me? No. Should he have known better, written it better? Not really that important, but able-bodied people get carried away with able-bodied stuff. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to do the same. The great thing about Zen is it's all Zen. Form is emptiness; emptiness is form, and I take that to also include formal zazen positioning.

[Meitou]

I found the advice about sitting with pain very useful actually, but I must stress that I'm not talking about the chronic pain many of you have to contend with, but boring old person pain, the usual suspects - arthritic neck, creaky knees, bad back etc. The neck stuff means I can only sit as straight and noble as an inquisitive tortoise, so be it. But when the creaky knees and dead leg start I have used the advice 'just five more breaths' and then another five, really helpful. Susan Moon herself isn't a stranger to these things, she's written a very good and funny book about ageing and practice, and I think it's in that book that she writes about the blessed relief she felt the first time she sat Zazen in a chair after having struggled so long with creaky knees.
I also liked the reminder about the earth supporting us (however we sit, lay etc), it brings to mind Buddha's touching the earth as witness mudra and the simplicity of his teachings.
What did intrigue me was the distinction drawn between 'every day sitting' and sitting in sesshin. I had always thought that sesshin required the same sitting but over a longer period. I'd like to hear about other Treeleafers experiences of sesshin, how it may or may not differ from 'every day sitting' and how it may or may not differ from a home retreat.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday

[Jinyo]

Just sit dropping concepts of straight and dignity, Fischer and Moon, interview and instructions. If it offends you, then just sit with the "you" who finds offense. Just sit. I did.

Look, as far as I am concerned, people take the sitting part of zazen way too literally. The essential instruction on zazen is what you do with your head, not your body. About the only physical instructions I can follow are to actually be sitting down with my hands in the mudra and looking straight ahead, so I tend to skim over all the other instructions because they don't apply to me, but I still do zazen. Did Fischer use some ableist language? Yes. Did that matter to me? No. Should he have known better, written it better? Not really that important, but able-bodied people get carried away with able-bodied stuff. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to do the same. The great thing about Zen is it's all Zen. Form is emptiness; emptiness is form, and I take that to also include formal zazen positioning.

I agree with most of what you write - and maybe not particularly offended for my self - but I think it's really important to make zen accessible to all and therefore feel anyone in a position of widely spreading the word needs to edit accordingly. I mean - it doesn't take a great deal of extra thought/ or additional words to write a bit more about Zen as practiced within the disabled community. I would have just liked it to be a bit more encouraging/inclusive for those with disabilities who are new to zazen.

Gassho

Jinyo

ST

[Jishin]

Look, as far as I am concerned, people take the sitting part of zazen way too literally. The essential instruction on zazen is what you do with your head, not your body. About the only physical instructions I can follow are to actually be sitting down with my hands in the mudra and looking straight ahead, so I tend to skim over all the other instructions because they don't apply to me, but I still do zazen. Did Fischer use some ableist language? Yes. Did that matter to me? No. Should he have known better, written it better? Not really that important, but able-bodied people get carried away with able-bodied stuff. That doesn't mean the rest of us have to do the same. The great thing about Zen is it's all Zen. Form is emptiness; emptiness is form, and I take that to also include formal zazen positioning.

Could not agree more. [emoji1317]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Tairin]

I sat today in my wheelchair. I always do zazen in my wheelchair. It's just sitting. All the other distinctions are best dropped away

[Ryumon]

Seconding what a lot of people have said about pain. I have back pain, it was chronic for many years, it's less so now, but sitting is generally at least a little bit painful. People who think you should sit through pain are looking at things the wrong way. There's a difference between muscle tension, which can cause pain, and the kind of pain that is a signal, a warning that you're doing something wrong. (Frankly, the muscle tension pain is a warning in its own way.) I'm not reading the book, but this seems like what a number of zen teachers espouse, the fact that you simply have to do it _this_ way or else you're a fake zennist. (And it's not just zen; many teachers from other traditions say this too.)

Gassho,

Grumpy Kirk

[Jundo]

How the Buddha "sat" when sick or his body ached ....

[Ryumon]

Yes, I can't do that. When I lie down, I can't manage to have the same intention as when I sit (though some years ago I could "sit" lying down). Sometimes when I sit in a chair I can, but not always. There's something about the cross-legged position that makes sitting different.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Toun]

Pain is something I have experienced every once in a while during zazen Sometimes I am able to minimize it by changing positions. The book does mention that "working with pain is important" but at the same time it mentions that we can't be foolish. If we notice that sitting too long is causing damage, then as the author puts it, "thats a sign that we should back off".

"The trick is to keep things simple, take care of your body reasonably and leave it at that".

Enjoying all of the comments and insights.

Gassho
Toun
Sat2day

[Rakurei]

There's one part that struck me as a bit odd:

What about the giant Chinese Pure Land temples? What about Theravada traditions brought over by Thai and Sri Lankan immigrants? Are these people "Western Buddhists" or not? I know what he's getting at here; there's a very clear distinction between "convert" Buddhism and "immigrant" Buddhism in the west. What irks me slightly is that he doesn't touch upon this distinction at all, simply because it seems to erase the existence of immigrant Buddhists in the west. I can understand, though; talking about other traditions in a book about Zen is really just a side note, and this is a side note in a chapter about zazen. The "immigrant" traditions tend to de-emphasize or discourage meditation for laypeople, so it wouldn't be very useful to go into detail here. Am I just worrying way too much about the semantics of the word "western"?

_/\_
Kenny
Sat Today

Jumping in a bit late - but I'm very glad we're doing this book - I listened to the audio version during Jukai last year and really enjoyed it.

One thing that's really amplified in the audio version is the fact that this is a casual conversation between two friends. When going for a walk with a loved one and explaining zen, you probably aren't going to dive into some of the nuances - the differences and effects that Sri Lankan immigrants had on western Buddhism and so forth. Even if you find it important, it's just not necessary for the tone of the chat.

You will see that a lot in this book, and again, in the audio it's made much more clear the casual tone of this book. Not "dumbing down" by any means, but instead - casual.


Norman is a great resource on the role of Buddhism in the West and the history of other traditions. You can see that a lot in his other works. It's easy for us to want the author to go in a different direction, but Normam and Sue are taking us for a walk - and it's best to go at their pace, rather than trying to make them go at ours.

-ST

Rakurei

[Seishin]

Been meaning to post for a few days now but snowed under with IT problems on new PC.

Great discussion regards how to sit and good that this thread reemphasizes Treeleaf's open arms to all. I can't sit any kind of Lotus and only Burmese for a few minutes. Conventional Seiza results in nerve compression in my butt with the Zafu on its edge. So I sit with Zafu placed on Zabuton normally but with my lower legs outside of my thighs. Probably means my hips are a little low but still above my knees but hey it works for me. Horses for courses.

Reading this section, going over some of Posture Of Meditation (would say all newbies should read this book) and a free How To Meditate course on Insight Timer that popped up in coincidental fashion, I've found myself more grounded and calmer in the last few days and less inclined to analyse how I'm sitting, which I still frequently do! Focusing lightly on my breath and also my body and especially contact points with the cushion and mat seems to allow my mind to be more settled and release a bit more blue sky. Maybe I've finally go it.

Looking forward to more.

[Shinshou]

In the zazen instructions, I was a little bothered by the repeated use of the word "attention." I think that word includes the idea of effort. The word "awareness" is more in line with what I'm "doing" during zazen. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but my impression was that the repeated use of "attention" could lead a beginner to believe that zazen is purely a concentration practice, which is not what I'm doing on the cushion (or maybe I've been doing it wrong!). Other than that, I thought it was a really good introduction, and some of his descriptions, casual or not, were far better than I could do if asked the same questions.

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Jundo]

In the zazen instructions, I was a little bothered by the repeated use of the word "attention." I think that word includes the idea of effort. The word "awareness" is more in line with what I'm "doing" during zazen. Maybe that's splitting hairs, but my impression was that the repeated use of "attention" could lead a beginner to believe that zazen is purely a concentration practice, which is not what I'm doing on the cushion (or maybe I've been doing it wrong!). Other than that, I thought it was a really good introduction, and some of his descriptions, casual or not, were far better than I could do if asked the same questions.

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

When Shikantaza folks say "attention," like Norman here, I believe that what they mean is closer to open "awareness." Yes, it is not "forced" in any way, and neither is it slack day dreaming or "spacing" or dullness.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshou]

When Shikantaza folks say "attention," like Norman here, I believe that what they mean is closer to open "awareness." Yes, it is not "forced" in any way, and neither is it slack day dreaming or "spacing" or dullness.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Whew, I’ve been doing it right!

Shinsho (Daniel)
Sat today


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