WHAT IS ZEN? - Chap 2 Zazen - To P. 17

[Troy]

I often sit on my lunch break in my car. I am pretty sure I break all the traditional rules about posture in my car. At home, I sit on a zafu Burmese style. I can’t get my legs in full lotus position. Knowing that people decades older than me can do it makes me think I could try harder though.


Sat2day

[Eishuu]

Whenever I read a book on Zen with pages and pages on the importance of sitting upright I feel discouraged and excluded. I'm glad that there is an awareness at Treeleaf that not everyone can do that and also that some people do Zazen with constant pain because of illness/injury regardless of their posture. I do find it hard not to think that my experience of Zazen might be very different if I could sit up and sometimes I feel like I'm not doing it properly because of that. I'm pretty sure Jundo would say that wasn't the case, but I still have those thoughts.

One thing I noticed that I haven't seen suggested at Treeleaf is actually counting the breaths, rather than just following the breath. In my experience counting the breath tends to be a more concentration-based practise.

Also, I'm not sure I agree that the meditation practised in all three traditions of Buddhism is 'pretty much the same'. That hasn't been my experience.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Jundo]

Also, I'm not sure I agree that the meditation practised in all three traditions of Buddhism is 'pretty much the same'. That hasn't been my experience.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

I sometimes say "always just the same" (in that perspective beyond all divisions, beyond me and you and the other, good and bad, birth and death), yet often quite different. Most meditation seeks special experiences, deep concentration or the like, unlike the radical rest and release of all goals in Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Eishuu]

I sometimes say "always just the same" (in that perspective beyond all divisions, beyond me and you and the other, good and bad, birth and death), yet often quite different. Most meditation seeks special experiences, deep concentration or the like, unlike the radical rest and release of all goals in Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

That's what I like about Shikantaza - it is very different in that way.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Ryushi]

I often sit on my lunch break in my car. I am pretty sure I break all the traditional rules about posture in my car.

If I have the time, I have a short "driver's seat sit" in my car when I arrive at work. I try to get close to correct posture. Cross legs at ankles, mudra. It's a great way to transition from an hour of driving to office work.

At home, I sit on a zafu Burmese style. I can’t get my legs in full lotus position. Knowing that people decades older than me can do it makes me think I could try harder though.

I can do full lotus, despite being 6-foot-5 and middle-aged. But, when I went to zazen instruction at Berkley Zen Center, the instructor suggested using half-lotus when starting out. That's what I've been doing. Recently, I tried full lotus again and it seems the stability when sitting on a zafu is improved. But I found it very difficult to get into. I think half-lotus is fine.

Sat. Gassho.

[Jishin]

Why do we sit and face the wall:

IMG_0974.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Troy]

If I have the time, I have a short "driver's seat sit" in my car when I arrive at work. I try to get close to correct posture. Cross legs at ankles, mudra. It's a great way to transition from an hour of driving to office work.



I can do full lotus, despite being 6-foot-5 and middle-aged. But, when I went to zazen instruction at Berkley Zen Center, the instructor suggested using half-lotus when starting out. That's what I've been doing. Recently, I tried full lotus again and it seems the stability when sitting on a zafu is improved. But I found it very difficult to get into. I think half-lotus is fine.

Sat. Gassho.

Thank you Todd. Good to know I am not the only one sitting in their work parking lot meditating [emoji3] I might give full lotus a go again. I do like Burmese because it is easy and a stable position. Half lotus might be a good transition for me, but I always found my knees at different heights making me a bit wobbly. Although, it works well for others of course.


Sat2day

[Jundo]

Why do we sit and face the wall:

[ATTACH]5202[/ATTACH]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

I love there that you post, J.

Gassho, J

SYLah

[Washin]

Thank you, Jundo. This is a great chapter.

Pain. A long time Zen practinioner once described to me the senstations they
usually experience in sesshins at the time of austere pain. When the pain is at the peak (for me it's
usually at the end of the second day) and you feel like you can no longer bear it, you try to open up more
and feel the Compassion towards hurting parts or the whole body. Besides you try to endure the pain,
be the pain, you become compassionate for your body. Then the tension softens or the pain may even totally
disappear. I haven't experienced this myself yet but think it can be a helpful pointer for one's Practice.

Gassho
Washin
sat, no lah yet

[KellyRok]

Hello all,

I'm truly enjoying this book, but there was a small passage that threw me off a little(pg. 8): "Sitting up straight puts you in a posture of full human dignity, which in itself will promote awareness and a sense of your own nobility." I had a slight problem with this...it sounded a little egotistical and arrogant. Almost like we should be proud that we are sitting and it makes us special in some way. I didn't like it, almost like I was offended by it .

But upon continuing, the author states, "I think of this sitting upright as, 'allowing yourself to be lifted from within."
This I could relate to! When I sit, I feel as if it is a heart-opening exercise...allowing me to be open to whatever comes through my sitting zazen at that moment. So then, I felt a little better about the rest of the chapter.


Another passage that truly resonated with me was, "Zen practice understands mind, body and spirit as being one experience, one activity. So whatever your posture, you pay attention to it as it is." (pg 13)

Early on, when I started along this path, I obsessed over trying to 'sit' correctly. I tried multiple stretches and techniques to sit full lotus; only ever managing to make it into a half lotus. I thought that the pain I was enduring was good for my practice as I worked through it sit after sit. After putting my hips out of place multiple times and causing my knee to swell and retain fluid and taking multiple trips to my chiropractor and doctor; I came to the conclusion that because of my scoliosis and damaged knee, full lotus and even half lotus were not options for me. I would feel ashamed and discouraged. But I found that seiza worked quite well for a little while...then I realized that it doesn't matter how you sit, as long as you are sincere and diligent in your practice. You can sit in a chair or even lay face down on a therapy table and still manage to stay present and focus on your breath and enjoy the feeling of being alive!

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei
sattoday/lah

[Jinyo]

I feel the same as Jinmei and Eishuu about parts of this chapter - to be honest I found it contradictory and not very helpful.

No matter how you cut it - there is a two tier aspect to Zen differentiating between those who can sit upright and those you can't. Being of the latter
it niggles away at me. I can't see the point of spending pages extolling the merits of upright sitting and bearing pain and then add in at the end - well, if you can't it really doesn't matter. ????????

Lets look at the comments on 'intense sitting' - apparently 'essential for someone who wants to devote significant time and effort to Zen practice'. Isn't it possible to devote time and energy even if disabled? I know for sure many of us here do. Another two tier differentiation is introduced between Sesshin and 'ordinary sitting'.

This may sound harsh but I believe that pain that is fabricated (by forcing the body to stay in one position for long periods of time) is simply not the same as the pain endured in chronic illness. Some of us here have intense pain before we even attempt to sit - being with pain is the reality of our
lives and does not 'shake out' when rising from the cushion. So regarding the aversion to the physical sensation of pain - maybe its possible to learn some kind of letting go so that 'sometimes pain miraculously disappears, and you feel light and full of ease'in sesshin but I'm not convinced by the implied value of that.

For me me there's an underlying philosophy that I simply don't warm to. Real life contains a lot of pain, both physical and emotional - surely it's enough to sit with/ to work with your real life. Real life ,I feel, is fundamentally our sesshin.

It's almost like when the text moves back to 'ordinary sitting' it all hangs lose - and one thing's no better than the other, just different, etc. I just feel - why give so much space to it in the first place seeing as intense sesshin is an exclusion zone for many.

(That apart I am enjoying the book! )

Gassho

Jinyo

[Shoka]

Kelly and Jinyo,

Thank you! i'm reading the kindle version, so I can see what passages are highlighted by other readers. The sentence about "noble posture" has 42 hightlights! But for me that line was distasteful. The following two lines I found much more realistic about sitting:

I think of this sitting upright as “allowing yourself to be lifted from within.” Rather than willfully imposing a rigid posture on yourself, you are allowing your body to be uplifted, letting this natural opening occur.

The idea of being lifted and a natural opening seem more correct to me as to what the posture creates for us. But having taught yoga for a while, I understand how difficult it can be to put into words how you want to make the body feel. I have heard the most "interesting" phases used by some teachers to try to create a sense of what you should be feeling. But for each of us the feeling is different.

I like reading books like this because they help to inform me on what types of descriptions I find helpful and when it might be better to say less. I truly like the simple basic descriptions of the posture and what to do. It leaves more room to just be, and not be worried about is my body feeling noble and lifted?

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[babyleaf]

Hello everyone,

I got my copy three days ago and have caught up. Hope it's cool to jump on the bandwagon .

"Sitting up straight puts you in a posture of full human dignity, which in itself will promote awareness and a sense of your own nobility." I had a slight problem with this...it sounded a little egotistical and arrogant.

I kind of understand the discomfort around this description. That being said, regardless of the specific posture (on the zafu, on a train standing up, sitting in a chair...) I do relate the consideration of our posture to a sort of embodiment of respect and integrity in a way? An upholding of our values even if nobody's watching, even if nothing in the moment demands it of us. Not too seriously, just a subtle attitude.

I also found it curious the idea of coming back to the breath and body is repeated whereas the open spaciousness of Shikantaza isn't mentioned. "...we just sit with the feeling of being alive" seems to fit Shikantaza, but again, I wondered why the "coming back to nothing in particular" wasn't mentioned in how to do Zazen.

Gassho
Gaby
Sat Today / LAH

[AlanLa]

I sat today in my wheelchair. I always do zazen in my wheelchair. It's just sitting. All the other distinctions are best dropped away

[KellyRok]

Hi Gaby,

Had the author stated that passage as eloquently as you have said it, I wouldn't have had a problem at all.

I do relate the consideration of our posture to a sort of embodiment of respect and integrity in a way? An upholding of our values even if nobody's watching, even if nothing in the moment demands it of us. Not too seriously, just a subtle attitude.

Yes, absolutely! You have said it so wonderfully, thank you!


Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei
sattoday/lah