Blue Cliff Record (Case 1) The Highest Meaning of the Holy Truths

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  • ZenJay
    Member
    • Apr 2024
    • 208

    #16
    Originally posted by Matt Johnson
    Not that anyone asked, here is my top academic learning from case 1 (Learning assisted by my BCR Assistant with facts Cross-Referenced by me):

    Emperor Wu was no slouch in Buddhism: Emperor Wu of Liang, also known as Xiao Yan, ruled from 502 to 549 AD during the Southern Dynasties period. He was a prominent patron of Buddhism and is often remembered for his deep devotion to the religion and his ascetic lifestyle. Merit or not he did a lot for Buddhism in China.

    The Northern Wei dynasty (where BD purportedly went after his exchange with WU(386–534 AD) was one of the most powerful and long-lived of the northern Chinese dynasties before the reunification of China under the Sui and Tang dynasties. Founded by the Tuoba clan of the Xianbei, a non-Han nomadic group, the Northern Wei unified northern China by 439 AD. The dynasty is particularly noted for its significant contributions to the spread of Buddhism in China, including the construction of the famous Yungang and Longmen Grottoes, which are monumental examples of Buddhist art.

    Donkey-tethering stake = concepts that bind a person. They can only go around in circles.

    They all seemed very fond of shooting arrows at Korea.

    When an elbow does not bend outward in offering, it only pulls things inward to itself = Chih is self-interested.

    Yuanwu insinuates that Chih is someone from one house involving himself emotionally in the affairs of another house. basically he's saying he should have butt out and left Wu alone to do whatever he was going to do.

    As far as I can tell, here are the major versions of BCR (as noted by Clearly in Bibliography):
    Hekiganroku Daikoza by Kato Totsudo, 1940.
    Hekiganroku Kowa by Ashahina Sogen, 1956.
    Hekiganroku Kowa by Ouchi Seiran, 1906.
    Hekiganroku Kowa by Shaku Soen, 1915-16.
    Hekiganshu Kogi by Imazu Kogaku, 1912.
    Hekiganshu Shudensho by Daichi Jitto, 1656-1735.
    Hekiganshu Teidokusho by Tenkei Denson, edited in 1903.Hekiganshu Teihon edited by Ito Yuten, 1963.
    Hekiganshu Teishoroku by Iida Toin, 1932.
    Pi Yen Lu Chiang I by Wang Chin Jui, 1972.

    Cleary used a variety of translation sources. The Chinese version that I am using to compare to Cleary is the Hekiganshu Shudensho which is one of the older and more traditional commentaries (and easily available online), which emphasizes the preservation of the classical Ch'an. It also lacks quite a bit of the extra commentary of the later Japanese versions (which makes it so much easier to “read”).

    sorry, I am a bit of a history wonk...

    _/\_
    sat/ah
    matt
    Great stuff Matt, thank you for sharing! I love learning the history as well!

    Gassho,
    Jay

    Sat/Lah today

    Comment

    • Tairin
      Member
      • Feb 2016
      • 2843

      #17
      Thank you Jundo. Not surprised that the BCR starts off with a classic koan.

      I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"

      None of your business

      I’ll just join the line up for execution now….

      II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?

      To me this seems like a metaphorical death. Bodhidharma tried many times to teach the Dharma to these two individuals only to have them continue to debate him. At some point it would be pointless to continue teaching the Dharma to those not ready to receive it. Persisting would just entrench positions and dogma. Perhaps too Bodhidharma’s return to India was a metaphor for moving on to teach others.


      Tairin
      Sat today and lah
      泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

      Comment

      • Kokuu
        Dharma Transmitted Priest
        • Nov 2012
        • 6868

        #18
        I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"
        Call any number, I will answer.

        No money, but I hope you received my donation to the Imperial fund for the homeless.


        II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?
        Bodhidharma was never born, how could he die?

        Every inch of Indian soil is his body.


        Gassho
        Kokuu
        -sattoday/lah-

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40674

          #19
          Originally posted by Matt Johnson
          ... including the construction of the famous Yungang and Longmen Grottoes
          ...

          Ah, Yungang. Here is a younger incarnation of Mina (now Mrs.) and me at Yungang!
          .

          They all seemed very fond of shooting arrows at Korea.

          When an elbow does not bend outward in offering, it only pulls things inward to itself = Chih is self-interested.

          Yuanwu insinuates that Chih is someone from one house involving himself emotionally in the affairs of another house. basically he's saying he should have butt out and left Wu alone to do whatever he was going to do.
          NO NOTES! I asked not to bring the notes here. Thank you. It distracts and takes center stage when it should remain a side-show.

          Gassho, Jundo
          stlah
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Tairin
            Member
            • Feb 2016
            • 2843

            #20
            Originally posted by Kokuu
            Call any number, I will answer.
            Reminds me of the old Chuck Norris joke

            Chuck Norris didn’t dial the wrong number. You answered the wrong phone.




            Tairin
            Sat today and lah
            泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

            Comment

            • Matt Johnson
              Member
              • Jun 2024
              • 468

              #21
              Originally posted by Jundo
              ...

              Ah, Yungang. Here is a younger incarnation of Mina (now Mrs.) and me at Yungang!
              .





              NO NOTES! I asked not to bring the notes here. Thank you. It distracts and takes center stage when it should remain a side-show.
              Man look at those ears!

              Yuanwus notes basically ARE most of the blue cliff record... The rest is just regurgitating koans.

              _/\_
              sat/ah
              matt
              Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-19-2024, 03:00 PM.

              Comment

              • Kokuu
                Dharma Transmitted Priest
                • Nov 2012
                • 6868

                #22
                Reminds me of the old Chuck Norris joke

                Chuck Norris didn’t dial the wrong number. You answered the wrong phone.
                I love that, Tairin!

                Comment

                • Koushi
                  Senior Priest-in-Training / Engineer
                  • Apr 2015
                  • 1366

                  #23
                  I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"
                  1. The call's already been picked up and answered (from a known and unknown number )
                  2. The wealth of the universe (and my Schwab account) is boundless—but none of it is mine.
                  II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?
                  1. He was never killed—and neither was he ever alive to be killed.
                  2. He never left India—wherever he goes, there is India—how could he ever return?

                  Gassho,
                  Koushi
                  ST
                  理道弘志 | Ridō Koushi

                  Please take this priest-in-training's words with a grain of salt.

                  Comment

                  • Jundo
                    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                    • Apr 2006
                    • 40674

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Matt Johnson

                    Yuanwus notes basically ARE most of the blue cliff record... The rest is just regurgitating koans.
                    Yes, we are reading Yuanwu's commentaries with the Koans, and the Koans themselves, but not the interjected notes. They distract. Someone can read them on their own, or another time.

                    Gassho, Jundo
                    stlah

                    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                    Comment

                    • Koriki
                      Member
                      • Apr 2022
                      • 257

                      #25
                      When I read koans I tend to look at them the way I look at dreams. In dreams we are everyone in the dream, so it can be helpful to look at it from each person's perspective. So, I am going to mostly ignore the prompts on this one and give my perspective. In this koan I can identify with Emperor Wu. He is like all of us. Measuring our lives by what we can accomplish and attain. Striving to make things better for ourselves. It helps us to feel in control of a life that we can't fully control. We like to manage nature because it is wild and dangerous, so we landscape our yards for symmetry and decide what lives and what dies. But to give up control and not get caught up in measuring and comparing, as frightening as it is, gives us freedom. Just my 2 cents.

                      Gassho,

                      Koriki
                      s@lah

                      Comment

                      • Heikyo
                        Member
                        • Dec 2014
                        • 105

                        #26
                        I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?"
                        Here it is..... although it may not be 'me' who answers!

                        "How much money do you have in the bank?"
                        Millions and nothing.

                        Gassho
                        Heikyo
                        Sat today / LAH

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40674

                          #27
                          FOLLOW-UP ASSIGNMENT

                          I am going to suggest, only for folks who did not do so, that you maybe try again to provide responses from that same "absolute/relative" double-entendre I describe in the OP. For example, how would Bodhidharma change a tire: Answer: "There is nothing to change, thus all things are change."

                          Maybe give it another shot if your first response did not approach the questions that way.

                          Yet how can one answer such questions when, of course, there is nothing to ask, nothing to answer, to body to ask it?

                          Gassho, Jundo
                          stlah
                          Last edited by Jundo; 08-21-2024, 01:30 PM.
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Tai Do
                            Member
                            • Jan 2019
                            • 1455

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Jundo
                            I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"
                            "Ultimately, I don't know!". There is no me or mine I. The Absolute sense.
                            "Relatively, I don't know!". Even though there is me and mine in the conventional sense, is it really skillful to tell the Emperor?

                            Originally posted by Jundo
                            ​​​II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?
                            Bodhidarma was killed, and his relative self with him; but the Buddha Mind's Seal was transmitted, so the Absolute True Self of Bodhidarma was not killed and can never die.
                            As a true heir of Shakyamuni Buddha, Bodhidarma never left India, but carries the sacred Buddha land with him wherever he went. How could he return to where he never left?

                            Gassho,
                            Tai Do
                            Satlah
                            怠努 (Tai Do) - Lazy Effort
                            (also known as Mateus )

                            禅戒一如 (Zen Kai Ichi Nyo) - Zazen and the Precepts are One!

                            Comment

                            • Shujin
                              Novice Priest-in-Training
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 1122

                              #29
                              I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"

                              Positive numbers, negative numbers; why would the Emperor concern himself with trivial things?

                              II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?

                              Bodhidarma was killed, yet is beyond life and death. There is no India from which to leave or return.

                              Gassho,
                              Shujin
                              st/lah
                              Kyōdō Shujin 教道 守仁

                              Comment

                              • Koriki
                                Member
                                • Apr 2022
                                • 257

                                #30
                                I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"

                                "Well, yes I'll give you my phone number. Isn't it wonderful how we're able to communicate with each other, to make those connections? But we're really already connected, aren't we? In reality my number is 1, the same as yours."

                                "Ah yes, money. It does seem to work like a form a measurement. We tend to equate it with a type of success in life. But is it a good measure? The things we have to do to get money don't seem to fit the eightfold path very well. The more we have also gives a false sense of security. A false sense that we're on the right track. In reality we're chasing yet another delusion. A delusion that we can find more contentment if we can just get that number up. But the contentment doesn't come no matter how high it goes, does it Emperor Wu?"

                                II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?

                                "Ah Bodhidharma. I think that when we don't grasp the Dharma, he dies. Thus, if the Buddha cannot be found in India, then Bodhidharma has left."

                                Gassho,

                                Koriki
                                s@lah

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