Blue Cliff Record (Case 1) The Highest Meaning of the Holy Truths

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40464

    Blue Cliff Record (Case 1) The Highest Meaning of the Holy Truths

    Dear All,

    We will now dive right in to the First Case, Bodhidharma and the Emperor.

    As I explained last week, we will read WITHOUT the short, snippy, show-offy, snotty and snide interjections called the "Notes." They are a form of zen 'kibbitzing' (definition). Some can be great, but they are very subjective in opinion, inconsistent, obscure, and (for our purposes) a distraction from the rest of the chapter which is relatively (although not totally) clear and direct. They remind me of a rap battle. They actually did develop from a very similar poetry "slam" game that was popular among Chinese intellectuals back in the day, trying to top each other. Who is going to "drop the mic?"
    .

    If you want to read the "Notes," do so on your own!!

    We will stay with the "Pointer," "Case" and "Commentary."

    If you want (optional "extra credit") you can also get into the "Verse" (but, again, without the "Notes" marked "**") and its commentary.

    However, do not confuse the "Notes" with the "Translator's Notes" which are at the end of the chapter (marked "a,b,c ... " in the text). Those can be very helpful.

    Let's Go! This first Koan is not such a mystery ...

    The "Pointer" sets the scene for the case, and contains various images describing how a real master is discerning (e.g., knows there is fire when sees the smoke, knows the 3 when seeing just the 1), and when he cuts off the delusions (the myriad streams of the mind), he moves naturally (like the sun rises and falls), going with the flow, meeting all circumstances and freely (in any direction). Hsueh Tou's "trailing vines" means the trail of words about to follow ...

    The "Case" has the emperor, who does many good works for Buddhism to gain merit, being told that, ultimately, there is no "merit" he can get (Because what is to be "gained" if the universe is already a priceless treasure beyond all human measure? When nothing is lacking in the "ultimate," how can something be gained?)! Old BD then says that the great and holy Buddhist teachings ain't holy, and are just Emptiness ... which (in the wholeness of Emptiness transcending small human ideas of opposites like "holy" vs. "ordinary" as well as "gain" vs. "loss" and all other measures) displays their real WONDERFUL HOLINESS, of course!

    Bodhidharma's "I don't know" does not mean that Bodhidharma is daft. Nor is it an acceptance of being partly ignorant (even though, of course, we must accept that we cannot know everything in life). Instead, it is actually a declaration of great MOST INTIMATE KNOWING where there is no "I" apart from something apart to "be known." There is just the wholeness of KNOWING, the ultimate KNOWING of the ultimate Wholeness, just who one is! It means freedom from intellectual ideas of names, separate identities, "I" who is not "you" and other divided categories. It is very different from the emperor's "I don't know" in the next paragraph, which is just a regular statement of ignorance.

    The "Commentary" should be pretty clear. Bodhidharma brought Zen to China from India. He points to something beyond judgements and comparison (the "absolute"), resulting in freedom and ease even in this world filled with opposites, comparisons, frictions (the "relative"). Both are true at once, so one might say that there is (absolutely) no merit, and yet (in the relative world) there is! This is known as the "two truths" (two ways to know this world) which are actually "not one, not two" (I sometimes say "two sides of a no sided coin.")

    It is interesting that Bodhidharma's legend here ends with assassination! It also has a resurrection (kinda like that other religion) where Bodhidharma apparently rose from the grave, and was seen carrying one shoe (the other shoe having been left in his now empty grave!)

    I feel that the "Verse" is nicely addressed by its "Commentary," so I will not add anything here except on the phrase "How could the growth of thorns and brambles be avoided?" Bodhidharma came to bring peace and liberation, but it is almost inevitable that doing so brings misunderstanding and troubles with some folks (some of which, apparently, might even want to kill you!)

    QUESTIONS FOR YOU (Don't look at others' responses before responding):

    I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"

    II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?

    In responding, try to put yourself in Bodhidharma's shoes ... or shoe.
    .

    .
    Gassho, J
    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-27-2024, 10:14 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Bion
    Treeleaf Priest
    • Aug 2020
    • 4645

    #2
    Originally posted by Jundo

    I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"

    II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?
    I - "Tell me, who is it that calls and who is it that answers?" "The storage house of the Palace is full, yet not a trace of gold can be found"
    II - Before having left, Bodhidharma was already returning. Chasing him for thousands of kalpas, there would be nobody who could encounter him

    Gassho
    sat and lah
    Last edited by Bion; 08-18-2024, 12:07 AM.
    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40464

      #3
      Originally posted by Bion

      I - "Tell me, who is it that calls and who is it that answers?" "The storage house of the Palace is full, yet not a trace of gold can be found"
      II - Before having left, Bodhidharma was already returning. Chasing him for thousands of kalpas, there would be nobody who could encounter him

      Gassho
      sat and lah
      Nice. How about your bank account?

      I might say that there is no need to talk like you are a 1000 year old Chinese Mandarin at the Imperial City. Maybe keep it more modern lingo and expression while making the same point.

      Gassho, Jundo
      stlah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Bion
        Treeleaf Priest
        • Aug 2020
        • 4645

        #4
        Originally posted by Jundo

        Nice. How about your bank account?

        I might say that there is no need to talk like you are a 1000 year old Chinese Mandarin at the Imperial City. Maybe keep it more modern lingo and expression while making the same point.

        Gassho, Jundo
        stlah
        I answered all three questions! Look carefully!
        Ah! The marrow of the words can not be spoiled even in 1000 years. Say a word to chase away the old Mandarin from the city gates!

        Gassho
        "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

        Comment

        • Ramine
          Member
          • Jul 2023
          • 160

          #5
          I.
          Emperor Wu : “What’s your phone number?” Ramine: “Let’s talk now.” Emperor Wu: “How will I contact you?” Ramine sticks his finger up the emperor’s right nostril. That gets his attention.
          Emperor Wu wipes his nose and asks: “How much is in your bank account?” Ramine: “Riches beyond count.” Emperor Wu says: “How did you get rich?” Ramine sticks his finger up the emperor’s left nostril. That also gets his attention.
          Emperor Wu wipes his nose in confusion. Ramine walks away thinking he’s not a great Zen teacher and avoids being arrested.
          The point is, the emperor has a discriminating mind obsessed with the past or the future. He can’t meet himself or anyone face to face in the real moment.

          II.
          There was no Bodhidharma in the first place. But he is with us now.
          There is no such thing as India. But of course there is.

          Ramine
          Sat and Lah

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40464

            #6
            sticks his finger up the emperor’s left nostril

            Ooooh. Yucky! Wash your hands!

            Gassho, J
            stlah
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Matt Johnson
              Member
              • Jun 2024
              • 400

              #7
              Originally posted by Jundo
              Dear All,

              I like that video... Thanks Kermit!

              ------

              1. "Sorry Wu I already have a job..."

              2. "places to go people to see..."
              Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-18-2024, 02:35 AM.

              Comment

              • Ramine
                Member
                • Jul 2023
                • 160

                #8
                Originally posted by Jundo
                sticks his finger up the emperor’s left nostril

                Ooooh. Yucky! Wash your hands!

                Gassho, J
                stlah
                Yes definitely… no trace of yuck left on these fingers .
                Ramine
                Satlah

                Comment

                • Matt Johnson
                  Member
                  • Jun 2024
                  • 400

                  #9
                  Not that anyone asked, here is my top academic learning from case 1 (Learning assisted by my BCR Assistant with facts Cross-Referenced by me):

                  Emperor Wu was no slouch in Buddhism: Emperor Wu of Liang, also known as Xiao Yan, ruled from 502 to 549 AD during the Southern Dynasties period. He was a prominent patron of Buddhism and is often remembered for his deep devotion to the religion and his ascetic lifestyle. Merit or not he did a lot for Buddhism in China.

                  The Northern Wei dynasty (where BD purportedly went after his exchange with WU(386–534 AD) was one of the most powerful and long-lived of the northern Chinese dynasties before the reunification of China under the Sui and Tang dynasties. Founded by the Tuoba clan of the Xianbei, a non-Han nomadic group, the Northern Wei unified northern China by 439 AD. The dynasty is particularly noted for its significant contributions to the spread of Buddhism in China, including the construction of the famous Yungang and Longmen Grottoes, which are monumental examples of Buddhist art.

                  Donkey-tethering stake = concepts that bind a person. They can only go around in circles.

                  They all seemed very fond of shooting arrows at Korea.

                  When an elbow does not bend outward in offering, it only pulls things inward to itself = Chih is self-interested.

                  Yuanwu insinuates that Chih is someone from one house involving himself emotionally in the affairs of another house. basically he's saying he should have butt out and left Wu alone to do whatever he was going to do.

                  As far as I can tell, here are the major versions of BCR (as noted by Clearly in Bibliography):
                  Hekiganroku Daikoza by Kato Totsudo, 1940.
                  Hekiganroku Kowa by Ashahina Sogen, 1956.
                  Hekiganroku Kowa by Ouchi Seiran, 1906.
                  Hekiganroku Kowa by Shaku Soen, 1915-16.
                  Hekiganshu Kogi by Imazu Kogaku, 1912.
                  Hekiganshu Shudensho by Daichi Jitto, 1656-1735.
                  Hekiganshu Teidokusho by Tenkei Denson, edited in 1903.Hekiganshu Teihon edited by Ito Yuten, 1963.
                  Hekiganshu Teishoroku by Iida Toin, 1932.
                  Pi Yen Lu Chiang I by Wang Chin Jui, 1972.

                  Cleary used a variety of translation sources. The Chinese version that I am using to compare to Cleary is the Hekiganshu Shudensho which is one of the older and more traditional commentaries (and easily available online), which emphasizes the preservation of the classical Ch'an. It also lacks quite a bit of the extra commentary of the later Japanese versions (which makes it so much easier to “read”). But exactly what was added when and by whom is a whole (or several theses). The ones listed above are translations themselves which also would cite their primary source or manuscript.

                  sorry, I am a bit of a history wonk...

                  _/\_
                  sat/ah
                  matt
                  Last edited by Matt Johnson; 08-19-2024, 11:10 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Ryumon
                    Member
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 1801

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jundo

                    Bodhidharma's "I don't know" does not mean that Bodhidharma is daft. Nor is it an acceptance of being partly ignorant (even though, of course, we must accept that we cannot know everything in life). Instead, it is actually a declaration of great MOST INTIMATE KNOWING where there is no "I" apart from something apart to "be known." There is just the wholeness of KNOWING, the ultimate KNOWING of the ultimate Wholeness, just who one is! It means freedom from intellectual ideas of names, separate identities, "I" who is not "you" and other divided categories. It is very different from the emperor's "I don't know" in the next paragraph, which is just a regular statement of ignorance.
                    Could it also be Bodhidharma saying that no one can ever truly know another? The Emperor's reply later seems to be obviously about knowing as knowledge of who someone is, but the fact that this is repeated suggests that the two responses are meant to be relative and absolute. Of course, the absolute could be as you say, about KNOWING....

                    I like the choice of Tim Burkett in his book, where he says that Bodhidharm's reply was "nothing holy about it." Yes, that leaves out emptiness, but is more of a negation.

                    QUESTIONS FOR YOU (Don't look at others' responses before responding):

                    I - What would you answer if the emperor asked you, "What's your telephone number?" "How much money do you have in the bank?"
                    If I was sure that I would not have my head lopped off, I'd say, "What's it to you?"



                    II - Also, was Bodhidharma killed or not killed? Did he return to India? Could he ever leave India?
                    It sounds a bit like Socrates' death for corrupting the youth of Athens. Not entirely voluntary, but Bodhidharma's giving up and accepting death could be similar to Socrates' choice of accepting what society - or the emperor - wanted, that his life wasn't that important.

                    Gassho,

                    Ryūmon (Kirk)

                    Sat Lah
                    I know nothing.

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40464

                      #11
                      Could it also be Bodhidharma saying that no one can ever truly know another?
                      Well, that is true. But usually Bodhidharma's answers would be seen as coming from the absolute, so "nothing separate can be known, and no separate knower, thus the most intimate of intimate knowing." But the "joke" is that he answers in the grammar of this relative world, thus "I don't know" (which sounds like ignorance, but is the opposite of ignorance.)

                      Your answer on Bodhidharma's ending is also very much in this world of samsara. How would you respond to these questions from the absolute, but in the grammar of samsara, making similar double entendre "jokes" as Bodhidharma?

                      Gassho, J
                      stlah
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Ramine
                        Member
                        • Jul 2023
                        • 160

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ryumon
                        Could it also be Bodhidharma saying that no one can ever truly know another?
                        Sat Lah
                        Good point, thank you. I thought that Bodhidharma's response also conveys the sense that the small mind cannot ever fully know its own fulness due to its being a limited construct based on the aggregates - hence the response is from an absolute perspective but expressed in the language of the 'small' self (as Jundo points out). BD's "I don't know" is true of himself in a relative sense. So an ego can't truly perceive another and can't truly know itself. I suppose he could have answered "the universe". Hope this makes sense.

                        Ramine
                        Sat and Lah

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40464

                          #13
                          On this question of "not knowing," I came up with an analogy I sometimes use of sailor in a little boat at sea ...

                          She does not know the age of the ocean, nor the name and location of every river that feeds it, its exact physical depths, how much water it contains in gallons, the species and Latin name for its every fish, the shape of all its shores and the exact number of sand grains there, what is over the far horizon, not to mention the vicissitudes of tomorrow's weather. She does not know.

                          And yet, tasting any drop of salty brine on the tip of her finger and tongue ... there is knowing ... from when all comes, to where all goes ... flowing ... all rivers and every inch of sea, depths that are boundless, that every grain of sand and fish, sail and sailor, sky and waters ... are but this single flowing flowing. All is clear Knowing.

                          Something like that.

                          Gassho, J
                          stlah
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Houzan
                            Member
                            • Dec 2022
                            • 527

                            #14
                            1a) +00-JU5T-L3T-G0
                            1b) Empty
                            2) BD is exactly when and where he is

                            Gassho, Hozan
                            Satlah
                            Last edited by Houzan; 08-20-2024, 03:09 PM.

                            Comment

                            • ZenJay
                              Member
                              • Apr 2024
                              • 175

                              #15
                              1- call me at 000-0000. There are only butterflies in the bank account.

                              2- He was not killed. Bodhidharma lives and teaches still… he wanders in our hearts and minds, expounding the dharma… thus he both left and never left India!

                              Gassho,
                              Jay

                              Sat/Lah today

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