Yoga and zazen

[Chris H]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Actually, I have no idea if we're all adults here. Who knows who is on these boards?

(Oh yeah, about my picture. I hope you don't mind me including my valet. He's a decent guy who carries me wherever I go so I thought he should be in there too.)

Gassho,
Chris

[will]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Chris H
Still, it concerns me when a discussion about other beliefs is completely shut down. I think it's instructive to see where different philosophies meet and diverge. Why not just point out where Zen differs, shoot down the fantastic and irrational bits, and let the discussion continue.

Hi Chris. I understand your point,and was going to post something similiar. With some of us there's no problem with delving into and discussing such things. However, there are beginners hanging around and we don't really want to guide them off track before they even begin. Once you reach a level in your practice you can start to read and try out whatever you want, but if you are doing it because you find your Soto practice doesn't give you any benefit, then you should probably work with a teacher. Also, if our trust is lacking, we can easly move on to something else without really giving Zen a chance. Zazen takes time.

I think Jundo's tone is really his personality, but what do I know? He's been sitting a few years more than I. I can't defend him. He can speak for himself. I can see his concern regarding some of the writing.

Perhaps we could be more clear about our motive of posting such things. But I think because this is a Zendo, we should first have a strong and dedicated Soto practice.

With that said, there is much that we can do and try and there is opportunity to persue that outside of the Zendo.

If one wants to have a discussion about other practices and even try them out, they can do it a little less publicly, or go to another forum (there's a lot of them).

But we must focus on our Zazen practice and have absolute trust in that first. I practice Soto Zen. You wouldn't find me throwing my sitting practice out the window for something else. Yes I have curiousity. Yes I might try something out, but Soto Zen and Zazen comes first. Plus, we shouldn't practice too many things as Dogen would say. Best to stick with one.

-------

Bye kshetra. Your welcome back anytime. (From me anyway)

Take Care
G,W

[Chris H]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Will,
Such a thoughtful response. Much appreciated. As a beginner myself I can attest to the fact that it can be difficult to parse out what Soto Zen is and isn't as opposed to other forms of Buddhism. I still struggle for clarity sometimes and many practitioners like to cross over the lines a here and there. I think Jundo has taken pains to establish a strong Soto practice and I respect that.
Gassho,
Chris

[Jundo]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hi Guys, from Saigon,

I certainly ain't no fundamentalist!

It is just that in our Ai-ki-do Dojo, we don't practice or instruct in Karate. Maybe it would be better to say we don't teach how to play baseball on a tennis court?

The internet is chock full of discussion of every which belief and system. Some might even be better than "Shikantaza"! Nothing keeping folks from finding all the other teachings and teachers of Karate and Baseball.

I am happy to discuss other teachings and compare them to Shikantaza, but I have to walk a fine line in not saying that it is okay to mix the two. Because it is not, any more than you would try to play tennis according to baseball rules with a basketball.

I was running to pack for my trip yesterday, and now I am sitting in an internet cafe in Saigon. As soon as things settle down, this week or after my trip, I will be happy to illucidate my reasons. Apparently the points I spelled out in my posting were not enough.

No trouble at all talking a little baseball now and then, and comparing the relative merits and techniques of one game to another ... but then we have to get back to tennis.

Gassho, The Coach

[CinnamonGal]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hey dear TreeLeafers!

I must say I was not feeling confused in the least before but I do now. :shock: In my original post I was referring to the physical side of Yoga, the one that got more attention in the west, Hatha yoga (well, plus the Pranayama breathing) which I probably should have specified in my post. I am not concerned with the philosophical part very much and the yoga teachers I read and hope one day to practise with do not care much for Hatha Yoga Pradipika or Patanjali's Yoga Sutra. I guess I could have just as well written a post on Cooking and Zazen or Making art and zazen but the problem seems to be that yoga has rich phylosophical traditions and once again I am not very much into this stuff at the moment.

Yoga enriches my life in many ways and helps me to get grounded in the body and in the moment, it helps to unblock the energy where it gets stuck in form of tensions in the gross body. Nothing more and noting less. I no longer look for answers or the Truth in philosofies, whatever flavour they might be. The only thing I am interested in is direct experience. Zen is one of the ways, as I see it. Zazen is a powerful tool.

When in doubt and deciding on how I should proceed about something, I find the Buddha's advice to he citizens of Kalamas (in Kalamas sutra) to be of huge help:

 You should decide, Kalamas, not by what you have heard, not by following convention, not by assuming it is so, not by relying on the texts, not because of reasoning, not because of logic, not by thinking about explanations, not by acquiescing to the views you prefer, not because it appears likely, and certainly not out of respect for a teacher.

Basically, the Buddha says: “Go and see for yourselves”! This is what I do.

I did not realised this post was not appropriate for the forum (although I still don't understand why) and apologise for starting it in the first place. I just have one life, one practice and it happens to include both yoga and zazen. Personally I see no contradiction or dilemma in it.
I had no intention to take us off the track.

Namasté,

I

[will]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Basically, the Buddha says: “Go and see for yourselves”! This is what I do.

That's pretty much the reason why I posted that stuff for you. However mxing and matching too early in one's practice might not be beneficial for some. It's probably best to pursue one at first.

Although we should be lamps unto ourselves, we have volumes of guidance stacked up from those who have already walked the path. We can only choose which guides to follow.

I did not realised this post was not appropriate for the forum (although I still don't understand why) and apologise for starting it in the first place. I just have one life, one practice and it happens to include both yoga and zazen. Personally I see no contradiction or dilemma in it.
I had no intention to take us off the track.

No big deal. It's just when all the philosophy starts to get passed around too much in the Zendo. Sounds like you have a balanced practice. Keep it up

My outlook on Yoga is pretty much the same as the quote I originally posted. Just do the postures to do the postures. No goal. However, The Zen Yoga site that I posted has some philosophy that isn't really in tune with Soto practice. So I understand Jundo's post.

We are here to practice Soto Zen an nothing but Soto Zen. There are some places that practice Yoga, Zen, Chi gong, Tantra, and everything in between, but it's not here.

Have Fun
G,W

[Charles]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hi Folks,

I sent this to Jundo via PM and he asked me to post it here, and also to pass on the message that he's in retreat at a monastery for at least a day and possibly more, because he really likes it there; and that he'll say more about this topic when he gets back.

----------------------------------------------------

Jundo,

I understand where you're coming from about not wanting teachings like this posted here -- there is certainly a risk of people confusing one kind of practice with another, and of mixing some other practice with what you teach. At the same time, I fear that banning discussion of practices like this may have exactly the opposite effect that you're hoping for.

It's worth considering that when people post things like this here, it offers an excellent opportunity for you to distinguish our practice from other practices -- to say, "No, our way is not this, it's nothing like this, and here are exactly the ways in which we differ." Teaching what something is by teaching what it isn't can be a powerful tool. Especially with a practice that's as subtle as the way you teach, saying what it isn't may often be more effective than saying what it is. So I guess I worry that if one of the members here runs into something like this, and doesn't post it because they're worried it isn't 'kosher', they'll miss the opportunity to hear about why it's different from what we do, and the rest of us will miss out on the opportunity for clarification as well.

This is your call, and if you decide that stuff like this shouldn't be posted, I'll respect that and gladly abide by it. But I do think it's worth considering the other side.

--Charles

[Alberto]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Rambling 2 cents

One of the problems with discussing Yoga as philosophy/religion/mystical practice is that it can get some people confused as the terms may be similar to some in our literature, and peoplw who haven't developed a solid practice -and those who visit out of curiosity - may get a distorted message. I guess if somebody starts talking here about the benefits of chanting Namu Amida Butsu , Jundo will emerge from the Vietnamese samadhi to whack them with a kyosaku. In the meanwhile, talking baseball or chinese porn is not gonna cause trouble.

I will respect the teacher's suggestion to avoid this topic, even though I personally would prefer to bring out more Yoga discussion to examine just how inconsistent the yogi thoughts are with our Way. I just bought Iyengar's "Light on Yoga" to learn the right form of some positions that will help me with my running (yeah, I just want the popular, commercial, non-mystical part of it), and just in passing I read some of the stuff that has been mentioned above: WOW. Moreover, just to illustrate the disconnect between reality and faith, I found that they attribute some positions curative power for the following diseases (among others): appendicitis, groin hernia, gallbladder disease, hemorrhoids, and some others that everybody knows only surgery (or perhaps the Atman?) can fix.

If Mr Iyengar lived in the Land of the Free (Ah, the rhetoric) and the Home of the Brave (that make wars out of distilled fear) his lawyers would be very busy dealing with lawsuits. Which reminds me: Mr Cohen is a lawyer! :twisted:

[TracyF]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Alberto, I think you may have read some people's misunderstanding of Iyengar. I haven't read any of his books but I was thinking of getting Light on Yoga one of these days after I catch up on my zen reading. Anyway, my neighbor is a Iyengar teacher and I think the practices are not designed to cure any diseases unless they directly related to a lack of general health. Instead, they are designed to alleviate the suffering from these diseases. Sometimes they can alleviate symptoms but I think they're supposed to alleviate suffering (as in dukkha) in the same way as the 8-fold path.

This brings me to my second comment. Maybe we should try to be careful about discussing other religions and philosophies of which we really aren't experts. I suspect that if we did study yoga seriously, we'd find an incredible amount of similarities to what we study here and the differences are more superficial. Just like I've noticed that there is some discussion on other Buddhist sects but the more I've become exposed to some of these, the more I find that the differences are more in the types of practice as opposed to ultimate aims (or non-aims). An outsider typically takes some of these practices too literally and slaps labels on it (just like the author discussing different types of 'enlightment' and his misinterpretation of zen, for example) but many times the supernatural aspects are not taken literally by the serious masters. Moreover, I agree with Jundo that we should also try to be careful about going into other philosophies here because it will confuse people trying to learn Soto Zen (especially since we have no yoga experts here who can properly compare and contrast).

Anyway, back to hatha yoga. I find yoga, tai chi or qigong to be great methods to calm my mind before I sit. Plus it's good for you (and I really need to get back into shape). I seriously tried Iyengar but the focus on precise alignment in asanas makes the classes almost disruptive. The teacher (my neighbor) is constantly yammering away and coming up to you to fix your position. It may be good for beginners to help them understand the positions but after a while, it's useless in calming my discursive mind and preparing for zazen. My favorite yoga DVD is Yoga Shakti by Shiva Rea. The asanas, music, her voice is perfect for me. Her yoga style is more vinyasa flow. The DVD has really difficult poses but I simply do modifications.

[Chris H]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Some good points. While we're on the subject of not misrepresenting religions: let's not give anyone the impression that the point of sitting Zen is to 'calm the discursive mind'.

Can you quote someone here saying "the point" of Zen is to calm the discursive mind, officer?

[TracyF]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hi Tracy,

Some good points. While we're on the subject of not misrepresenting religions: let's not give anyone the impression that the point of sitting Zen is to 'calm the discursive mind'.

Regards,

Harry.

Holy cow, that wasn't my intention! :shock: If I only wanted to 'calm my mind' I would just do hatha yoga or chant a lot. That's a hell of a lot easier than shikantaza.

Anyway, I don't know about you folks, but I sometimes can't even sit...as in physically settle my butt on the zafu. My brain will be rushing so much that I'll literally jump to my feet after 5 minutes and there goes zazen down the toilet. :roll: But doing something like yoga takes the ants out of my pants. And, lord knows, I need the excercise. ops: I can't be the only one with this problem in this face-paced world.

[Shindo]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hi Tracey

I can't be the only one with this problem in this face-paced world.

no - I feel the same on many occasions. Especially, in the mornings before a difficult day. I used to try counting etc to "calm" the mind, but generally it settles on its own after 10 minutes or so. Except on the days when I just sit & fret . Whatever happens, I know I feel better during the day if I sit & I miss it when I don't. I try to sit with what is.....nothing more or less.

Kind regards

Jools

[Charles]

Re: Yoga and zazen

My brain will be rushing so much that I'll literally jump to my feet after 5 minutes and there goes zazen down the toilet...I can't be the only one with this problem in this face-paced world.

Tracy,

You are most definitely not the only one with this problem.

--Charles

[will]

Re: Yoga and zazen

My brain will be rushing so much that I'll literally jump to my feet after 5 minutes and there goes zazen down the toilet...

I was like this as well. Now I can sit Zazen for a long time. I'm not really sure where the transition happened. I haven't done Yoga for a long time, and I don't even excercise right now.

It is an important point I think, for some to be able to sit for a length of time. This jumping up from the Zafu, is just a habit. It effects the nerves I've learn't as well. It is not only the mind that's racing, but body is effected by that as well. As you know, I've had extreme dillusion and tension.

I've found that it was common for me to review my day. There are so many tasks to be done and so many things that I encountered that day, but really I can't do any of them at that moment, so I might as well just sit and pay attention I think.

When doing Yoga there should be no goal in my opinion. You might try doing Yoga for about 15-30 minutes, then the corpse pose for about 10-15 minutes. But it shouldn't become a distraction from Zazen. The whole point is to be able to sit. Time is all I think I can say. As time goes on we learn to sit.

Calming the mind is not the point of Zazen. However, to sit Zazen, some of us need to relax and be able to concentrate on something other than our thoughts. That's really just habit I think.

I brought my attention to the wall and sounds. Sometimes I would turn the volume up on the thoughts. Like yelling. I HAVE TO DO THE DISHES. MY POST ON THE FORUM NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. for example. Then perhaps come back to the wall.

Some use the breath. Some also use mala beads. But these are only used by some to be able to sit for a length of time. You should put them away eventually. Mix it up. Sometimes just sit.

Have you taken this up with Jundo? If he hasn't giving you any guidance on this, then it probably means he thinks you should just continue sitting.

Gassho

[Eika]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Jools wrote:
I try to sit with what is.....nothing more or less.

I agree. Succumbing to thoughts that tell us we must get off the zafu is a type of confinement. Letting those thoughts, no matter how compelling they may be, simply be thoughts and continuing to sit is freedom. Sounds pretentious of me to say it that way, but I can't think of a better phrasing.

Gassho,
Bill