Yoga and zazen

[CinnamonGal]

Very much in tune with Running and Zazen post.

Having been doing yoga and zazen on a daily basis (hopefully ), sometimes one after another, I have discovered both practices, although they seem to be very different in form, are very much alike. This is what I came up with so far.


Body and mind

One of the most apparent for me similarities between the two is the interconnectedness of body and mind, when they become one. I bring my mind to where my body is. In yoga I can simply hurt myself if I let my mind wonder off into the world of stories of the self. In zazen the body is still and seemingly passive but keeping the posture (being aligned, just as in yoga) is very important for the quality of the mind. If I notice that my mind is dull and drifting away, I check the posture and always notice that I am slouching without realising it.

I read somewhere of a Zen teacher who was doing zazen up a tree to prevent himself from falling asleep. Hm…

Both take time to settle into

At first it takes pure discipline to get myself either on the yoga mat or on the cushion. Only after a few weeks do I start appreciating the actual process and even get a longing to get on the mat/cushion whenever I have a chance.

No competition (nothing to attain)

As a beginner in yoga one gets an idea of what a perfect posture can be like, something that one has to strive for and as Erich Shiffmann in his book on yoga writes “…Because of this, there will necessary be a gap between where you are in a posture and where you think you should be. This gap, more often than not, contains a subtle frustration, a conflict, a feeling that where you are is insufficient - or worse, who you are is insufficient - and that if you were truly doing yoga properly and were a “good” or “evolved” person, you would be somewhere other than where you are. In this case this practice will be permeated with the effort of going somewhere else. It will be future-oriented, the present moment being significant only as a stepping stone to the future. And you will miss the present.”

How many times did I get on the cushion in a perfect mood expecting zazen would to be as good as the previous one or maybe even better only to find out thoughts starting to climb over each other, fighting for attention and I would have to postpone perfect zazen till next time. Just as in yoga I have to forget how deep I could enter a certain pose the previous time and be tuned to the way my body responds at the moment, I have to accept the way my mind is when I get on the cushion. This is it. What have we here?

One thing though: during zazen my legs often fall asleep which never happens in yoga. My body longs for yoga but seldom longs for zazen. :roll:

[John]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hi Irina,

At the 5-day sesshin I attended recently, Paul Haller led a 1 hour Yoga session daily. It wasn't optional. Everyone was required to do it. Stretching the muscles helps with the long periods of immobile sitting, apparently,

Gassho,
John

[will]

Re: Yoga and zazen

padma-asana (AKA lotus posture)



Zazen is not the only path I think.

Yoga a lot of the time it is considered like bompu Zen. Health, vitality all that.

Zen Yoga (from a google search)

Reverend Ryugen Watanabe, Osho

Shakyamuni Buddha himself became Buddha because of the benefit of yoga practice - just moments before he attained enlightenment, Buddhism did not yet exist, there was only yoga. It is meaningless for me to practice and teach yoga in my life if it cannot heal the body, cure sickness of the mind, benefit the world and help to attain enlightenment. If yoga worked only for a small number of people, I would not feel called upon to devote my life to spreading the teachings of Zen Yoga. One reason for calling this practice Zen Yoga is that it is yoga practiced by a Zen monk - yoga practiced with the mind of Zen, a practice without expectation.

The practice of yoga with no mind, empty mind: Zen mind. It is practice for the sake of practice. Zen Yoga does not make use of asanas for the sake of health or flexibility. Zen Yoga does not practice pranayama, mudra or bandha for awakening chakras of raising the Kundalini Shakti. Zen Yoga practices asanas simply for the sake of doing asanas.

http://www.zenyoga.org/about_zen_yoga.html


G,W

[Stephanie]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Yoga can help improve not only physical flexibility and stamina for seated meditation, but can also generally improve the functioning of the body in a way that increases mental energy and clarity on the cushion. It's a very useful thing for a meditator to pick up.

[CinnamonGal]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hey guys,

Thanks everyone for your feedback.
I am not very much acquainted with yoga philosphy but for me yoga is definately more than exercise or body toning technique.

I will check the link, Will .

Gassho,

Irina

[Hans]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hello Folks!

Please excuse my splitting a few hairs at this point We should keep in mind that what is being labelled and marketed as YOGA in the west refers to watered down Hatha-Yoga for the most part. I practiced Iyengar Yoga myself for a while and am a big fan of these kinds of exercises, but originally, the physical aspects were very often simply a foundation needed to be able to further pursue the quest for Moksha (though I am indeed generalizing a lot here). Raja-Yoga, Kundalini-Yoga are all interrelated yet quite distinct approaches to the Yogi's quest (though the western trademarked neo-traditions going by the same name very often have little in common with the genuine Indian article). The oh-so popular seven chakra system e.g. is just one of many and has become the standard in the West mostly due to clever New-Age marketing.

Check out Patanjali's works for some real classic Yoga texts. If you've got too much time on your hands I can recommend Mircae Eliade's very thorough yet at the same time very dry treatise on the subject called YOGA (what a surprise).

Zen doesn't really have a fully developed school of body-energy cultivation and manipulation at its disposal to my knowledge (because that just ain't the Zen approach...and if it ain't broke, don't fix it ), thus a bit of Chakra-awareness breathing western style won't do any harm IMHO . The trouble only really starts once one is engaged let's say in Tibetan style practice and then mixes it with slightly similiar yet really different systems. Some of the "more advanced" tibetan techniques work a bit like plumbing (to borrow a term from Jundo's nemesis Namdrol) when it comes down to the very clear way of describing that one needs to do X to achieve Y etc. , best not to try and force apple Mac components into IBM machines is all I say

All these useless words of mine....to cut the long story short, just my little bit of advice, look into what you mean when you use the term yoga, before using it and enjoy those "bendy" legs

Gassho,

Hans

[Stephanie]

Re: Yoga and zazen

I used to dig yoga as a religious approach and philosophy, but any more, it's too idealistic and world-denying for me. I think that monasticism and asceticism have their places in the world, but I also believe that religious practitioners who take these up out of a belief that the world is evil or corrupt and needs to be transcended are sadly deluded. I also believe now that such beliefs are destructive and harmful. And it seems to me that the traditional yoga world particularly holds up and venerates those types of folks. The ideal of someone who walks around with a halo and feels no desire and communes with God 24/7 because mortals are so beneath them. I now resent the idea of listening to some smug guy in a loincloth prattle on about a bunch of imaginary stuff. Though the sex scandals that crop up around many of these Indian yoga gurus are good entertainin's.

[will]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Eight Limbs of Patanjali (Noble eight fold path) as you can see is different and similiar to our Zen practice. We can see the difference in technique in Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana.

It is interesting to note the first part of the purpose of asana.

Yama
Yama is social behavior, how you treat others and the world around you. These are moral principles. Sometimes they are called the don'ts or the thou shalt nots. There are five yamas:

Nonviolence (ahimsa). Do no harm to any creature in thought or deed. In his book Autobiography of a Yogi, Paramahansa Yogananda asks Mahatma Gandhi the definition of ahimsa. Gandhi said, The avoidance of harm to any living creature in thought or deed.Yogananda asked if one could kill a cobra to protect a child. Gandhi maintained he would still hold to his vow of ahimsa, but added, must confess that I could not serenely carry on this conversation were I faced by a cobra.

Truth and honesty (satya). Tell no lies. Cheating on your income taxes falls into this category.
Nonstealing (asteya). Do not steal material objects (a car) or intangibles such as the center of attention or your child's chance to learn responsibility or independence by doing something on his own.
Nonlust (brahmacharya). Don't worry; this is not a call to celibacy. Many yogis of old were married and had families of their own. The person who practices brahmacharya avoids meaningless sexual encounters and, as the well-known teacher B.K.S. Iyengar puts it, sees divinity in all.
Nonpossessiveness (aparigraha). Free yourself from greed, hoarding, and collecting. Do you really need more shoes, another car, or to hog the conversation every time you see your friends? Make your life as simple as possible.

Niyama
Niyama is inner discipline and responsibility, how we treat ourselves. These are sometimes called observances, the dos, or the thou shalts. There are five niyamas:

Purity (shauca). Purity is achieved through the practice of the five yamas, which help clear away the negative physical and mental states of being. Keep yourself, your clothing, and your surroundings clean. Eat fresh and healthy food. The next time you joke about treating your body like a temple, think of this niyama.
Contentment (santosha). Cultivate contentment and tranquility by finding happiness with what you have and who you are. Seek happiness in the moment, take responsibility for where you are, and choose to grow from there.

Austerity (tapas). Show discipline in body, speech, and mind. The purpose of developing self-discipline is not to become ascetic, but to control and direct the mind and body for higher spiritual aims or purposes.
Study of the sacred text (svadhyaya). Study sacred texts, which are whatever books are relevant to you and inspire and teach you. Education changes a person's outlook on life. As Iyengar says, a person starts to realize that all creation is meant for bhakti (adoration) rather than for bhoga (enjoyment), that all creation is divine, that there is divinity within himself and that the energy which moves him is the same that moves the entire universe.
Living with an awareness of the Divine (ishvara-pranidhana). Be devoted to God, Buddha, or whatever you consider divine.

Asana
The posture of yoga is steady and easy, Patanjali says. Patanjali compares this to resting like the cosmic serpent on the waters of infinity. Although Westerners often consider the practice of asana or postures as an exercise regimen or a way to stay fit, Patanjali and other ancient yogis used asana to prepare the body for meditation. To sit for a lengthy time in contemplation required a supple and cooperative body. If you are free of physical distractions such as your foot going to sleep and can control the body, you can also control the mind. Patanjali said, Posture is mastered by freeing the body and mind from tension and restlessness and meditating on the infinite. [underlined]

Pranayama
Prana is the life force or energy that exists everywhere and flows through each of us through the breath. Pranayama is the control of breath. The basic movements of pranayama are inhalation, retention of breath, and exhalation. The yogi's life is not measured by the number of days but by the number of his breaths, says Iyengar. Therefore, he follows the proper rhythmic patterns of slow, deep breathing. The practice of pranayama purifies and removes distractions from the mind making it easier to concentrate and meditate.

Pratyahara
Pratyahara is withdrawal of the senses. Pratyahara occurs during meditation, breathing exercises, or the practice of yoga postures any time when you are directing your attention inward. Concentration, in the yoga room or the boardroom, is a battle with distracting senses. When you master pratyahara, you are able to focus because you no longer feel the itch on your big toe or hear the mosquito buzzing by your ear or smell the popcorn popping in the microwave.

Dharana
Concentration or dharana involves teaching the mind to focus on one point or image. Concentration is binding thought in one place, says Patanjali. The goal is to still the mind gently pushing away superfluous thoughts by fixing your mind on some object such as a candle flame, a flower, or a mantra. In dharana, concentration is effortless. You know the mind is concentrating when there is no sense of time passing.

Dhyana
Uninterrupted meditation without an object is called dhyana. Concentration (dharana) leads to the state of meditation. The goal of meditation is not unconsciousness or nothingness. It is heightened awareness and oneness with the universe. How do you tell the difference between concentration and meditation? If there is awareness of distraction, you are only concentrating and not meditating. The calm achieved in meditation spills over into all aspects of your life during a hectic day at work, shopping for groceries, coordinating the Halloween party at your child's school.

Samadhi
The ultimate goal of the eightfold path to yoga is samadhi or absolute bliss. This is pure contemplation, superconsciousness, in which you and the universe are one. Those who have achieved samadhi are enlightened. Paramahansa Yoganananda called it the state of God-Union.

The eight limbs work together: The first five steps yama, niyama asana, pranayama, and pratyahara are the preliminaries of yoga and build the foundation for spiritual life. They are concerned with the body and the brain. The last three, which would not be possible without the previous steps, are concerned with reconditioning the mind. They help the yogi to attain enlightenment or the full realization of oneness with Spirit. Enlightenment lasts forever, while a flat tummy can disappear with a week of binging.

http://www.yogamovement.com/resources/patanjali.html
G,W

[will]

Re: Yoga and zazen

SWAMI VENKATESANANDA

Some how we are hooked on to the idea that this Yoga is something special.

Can you levitate? ...Why do we need to levitate? There is a chair here.(laughs)

If you can't afford a chair, it's ok I can stand.

One of the great Yogi's in the Himilayas told me during the early days of his yoga practice, while he was meditating his body was lifted up, he hit the ceiling and floated back down. Luckily there was no injury to the head.

There are two lovely words in the English language that are most appropriate to this connection... "So What."(laughs)... You hit the ceiling? So what?

G,W

[kshetra]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Regrets - it is gone now.

[phillybuddha]

Re: Yoga and zazen

I practice both hatha yoga and zazen and find that they actually compliment each other.

Mike
PhillyBuddha

[Jundo]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hi,

I am very hesitant about much of this, and in fact, I do not approve and want to keep it distant from what we Practice here.

I say this, not so much for experienced folks (although for them too), but more for beginners who might be wondering about whether some of what is being described here, and Zen Practice, are the same. Sorry, I am a very skeptical fellow, and I do not go much for energies, chakras, siddhis (special psychic powers) and the like.

First off, I do not know Rev. Ryugen Watanabe (also known as Swami Premananda), but my spider senses are going off (perhaps a Siddhi?) when I read mumbo-jumbo like this ...

You are eternal, but your body is limited. The opposite of eternal is temporary. Since we are eternal but our body is temporary (only lasts about 100 years), then we have to keep changing our body. Therefore, to die means to exchange the old body for a new one.

...

Proper circulation and breathing can cleanse impurities from the body, but we must also have a pure mind to be truly healthy. Everybody knows and talks about the happiness and peace within us. "God is within you." But where? Saying God is within us is the same as saying that a disease is within us - and it is a mistake. You are the disease, you are the God. It all depends on what the mind believes.

The actual location of the "God" (the real you: the body is only your body, the body is not you, you are the God) is realized through meditation on the ANAHATA CHAKRA (heart chakra). The "God" within is known as ATMAN by the Hindus, or the Buddha Nature by Buddhists.

Once you realize the eternal self ("God") within, you will realize that everything besides the ATMAN is merely illusion (momentary). Meditation on the God within is the most powerful healing technique because it is the ultimate spiritual goal of every human being, beyond the reach of illness in the material body.

AUM.

Right or wrong, we do not teach "Buddha Nature" as "Atman" or "God". We are not "merging with the Cosmic Consciousness". Those are cheap slogans very distant from our Shikantaza Practice, which is much more profound for not putting any demands or easy labels upon the universe. I also do not approve of questionable theories on the origins of illness. Phooey to this Hooey!

I do not know Rev. Ryugen, but his writings posted on the internet are New Agey and guru-ish, and I do not care for that at all. I have made inquiries to some other more traditional Zen teachers in his area, but in the meantime it strikes me that I will judge this book by its cover.

The same for teachings like this, which were also mentioned ...

Nirvikalpa samadhi is the highest experience that can result from such action. It is preceded by an intense effort. In the relative level, this effort may well be considered to be the cause and nirvikalpa samadhi its legitimate effect. So nirvikalpa samadhi is limited by causality. The yogin admits that he goes into nirvikalpa samadhi and comes out of it. Therefore it is also limited by time. In order to get into nirvikalpa samadhi, the body is necessary for the yogin to start with. Therefore nirvikalpa samadhi is also limited by space.

Thus nirvikalpa samadhi clearly forms part of the phenomenal.

2. The involuntary action is the other type. This is spontaneous and objectless. It comes over you involuntarily; you yield to it and merge into it. In its progress, the mind gets relaxed and ultimately disappears, leaving you to yourself all alone.

This experience denotes the real significance of the term 'deep sleep'. The interval between two mentations is another instance of involuntary action. You stand as yourself alone in both these experiences, but you do not cease to be the same Reality, yourself, in the so called dream and waking states. Therefore you do not ever go into or come out of deep sleep, and it is uncaused.

Hence deep sleep, if correctly understood, is evidently your real nature. It is, strictly speaking, no state at all; and is far beyond any samadhi."

Please don't teach this here. In our way, everything is Truth, and your "real nature" is not something to be pursued. It is not just sleeping, but walking talking arguing belching and tripping over a tin can. There is no deep Samadhi that we wish to go into or come out of (whether we "go in" or "come out", which we sometimes might in Shikantaza ... we are always right where we should be). There is nothing more "Truth" about being "in" than "out", whether the mind disappears or does not disappear ... no import.

Please, kindly, take this kind of thing outside our practice place. These teachings may be right, and what we practice around here may be wrong ... but I do not want to mix the two in any manner.

I am not talking about a little Yoga for its physical benefits, which is a very good thing and fine to pursue.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Re: Yoga and zazen

I am very hesitant about much of this, and in fact, I do not approve and want to keep it distant from what we Practice here.

I say this, not so much for experienced folks (although for them too), but more for beginners who might be wondering about whether some of what is being described here, and Zen Practice, are the same.

Good point.

I do not know Rev. Ryugen Watanabe

Yeah. I just found the site on a Google quick search. I was a little hesitant to post it.

Please, kindly, take this kind of thing outside our practice place.

Will do.

G,W

[kshetra]

Re: Yoga and zazen

OK, no problem.

It seems best for me that I leave the community now. I have appreciated your comments and gained much from all your posts. I cannot imagine logging in as kshetra again given Jundo's understandable points above. It was truly my mistake entirely all round. Thank you all for your time and best wishes to you all.

k

[Chris H]

Re: Yoga and zazen

Hmmm. I agree about all the Hindu mysticism stuff sounding hokey. It really doesn't interest me. Still, it concerns me when a discussion about other beliefs is completely shut down. I think it's instructive to see where different philosophies meet and diverge. Why not just point out where Zen differs, shoot down the fantastic and irrational bits, and let the discussion continue. I'd say it's actually creepier to limit the discussion to Zen and Zen only. Maybe it's my own issues at play here, but it echoes my experience growing up around fundamentalist Christians, where other beliefs were to be feared and not spoken of. I mean, we're all adults here right? All respect. This is a good place.

Gassho,
Chris