Rohatsu make up talk

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 39982

    #16
    Originally posted by dudleyf
    I've found it useful to myself to make a distinction between "pain" and "suffering". Pain being an unavoidable consequence of life, and suffering being the result of identifying with or attaching to our pain. Suffering takes our pain and holds on to it in case we need it later.
    We have no choice but to feel pain. The world does that to us. We make our own suffering.

    Gassho, dudley
    #sat
    I think that is right. But I think the point of Daizan's talk, and I do so agree, is that it is okay if we do "choose" some painful emotions in life.

    I have to caution some folks sometimes though that Buddhism (at least in the Mahayana flavor I practice) does not mean being "detached", in the sense of avoiding all emotional attachments or reactions as much as possible. Perhaps in certain forms of early South Asian Buddhist Traditions, there developed an emphasis on really cutting oneself off and cooling the emotions. In contrast, in our way perhaps we actually "choose" to feel some forms of sadness and loss, but it's ok! In China and Japan, and especially in the West these days, the emphasis (brilliant if you ask me) is one having normal human emotions, but not running to excess and not becoming their prisoner ... seeing through them as we have them, not buying into the "mind theatre's" games too much, avoiding the truly harmful emotions while cultivating the healthful and positive ones.

    It is wise and a good way to life. I sometimes write like this on the difference between cold or apathetic "detachment" and wise "non-attachment" ...

    Our way is to be "non-attached", not "detached" and "unattached". That means that one can emotionally savor, to the marrow, what is happening in life right now ... and one can commit to that and pour oneself into that ... but just do not cling to that, be willing to let it go. Appreciate this life while it is here (for our self for for those selfs we love) ... and when it is over, release (feeling grief when grief at loss of those we love is called for). Feel all emotions, yet simultaneously see through them as mental theatre, do not be imprisoned or made a puppet, seek to keep moderation and balance (although ... even then, moderation may not always be best when it comes to love).

    I think of this quite frequently as our son gets bigger. He is getting older, a time of bitter-sweet happiness. I do not want to be emotionally detached from that, but neither do I want to cling to this moment, try to keep him from growing up, and be unwilling to see it all pass.

    Early Buddhism did emphasize emotional detachment more than the later Mahayana. As I said, now we tend not to see our thoughts and emotions (i.e., the "self") so much as the "enemy" as bits of theatre that have to be seen through, handled wisely, not allowed to tie us up. That is a big difference. Same with ordinary life, which is no longer seen as something to "escape", but as something to also be seen through, handled wisely, not allowed to tie us up.

    One can be attached to Zazen or Buddhism, the people we love and such. Just cling lightly also, even as you fully savor each. Also-also (a double also ) know the Buddha's View free of all views and attachments, All At Once, As One. ... squeezing hard, squeezing lightly and also-also fully open handed AT ONCE!
    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday (not attached to good health, yet really hoping to feel better tomorrow)
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-16-2016, 07:09 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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    • RichardH
      Member
      • Nov 2011
      • 2800

      #17
      Thank you Jundo. It was not easy to give that talk for a couple of reasons. The basis of practice you have shown me is that nothing is missing, and there is nothing to attain, even while we carry on with the usual picking and choosing of life. I had something to say that does not contradict that, but can so easily seem to. Being pretty thick it took me a long time to learn to just sit whole-and-complete-already. So I appreciate how easy it is to misguide and cause others to feel a lack that isn't really there. The sediment sinks to the bottom of the juice because it no longer matters.

      It is easier to talk about sitting in a practical way (with joyful poetic voice) but the reading brought this up.

      The other reason this was emotional for me is because of my own background. Having come through a hinayana (lower case intentional) way, that saw suffering as a zero sum game, there was a pivot point when a mahayana way was chosen. It was an actual moment when I saw the cost of embracing the world, of living and loving in a fully human way, and consciously accepted the cost. I understand that with wisdom grief is not prolonged, and in the midst of pain and loss, it is by feeling completely (without indulging) that radical freedom is realized. At the same time there is an organic "suffering" that seems to be hardwired into a loving mammal that is unavoidable, maybe greatly reduced, definitely mitigated, but still has to be experienced. That is the cost that I accepted, and I have also come to see it as a beautiful and fair price. What a privilege it is to love my wife and child without holding back, and to accept the grief that must follow. Please don't get the impression that I dwell on this, or am all heavy, life is full of play for me, but again the subject came up with the talk.

      Sorry for the ramble.

      Gassho
      Daizan

      sat today

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 39982

        #18
        I know that we are saying just the same Daizan, and are two Zen guys disagreeing on the semantics of "suffer". As I sometimes say, if it were a choice between the Buddha and my kids ... the kids win. Fortunately, this is not an "either/or" Path in my book.

        I hope we have more such talks from you in the coming year. Otherwise, we will all suffer the loss.

        Gassho, J

        SatToday kinda leaning on the wall (still a bit weak)
        Last edited by Jundo; 12-16-2016, 02:29 PM.
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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        • Kyonin
          Treeleaf Priest / Engineer
          • Oct 2010
          • 6745

          #19
          Thank you Daizan.

          Beautiful talk

          Gassho,

          Kyonin
          #SatToday
          Hondō Kyōnin
          奔道 協忍

          Comment

          • RichardH
            Member
            • Nov 2011
            • 2800

            #20
            Thank you Kyonin.

            Deep bows
            Daizan

            sat today

            Comment

            • Taiyo
              Member
              • Jul 2016
              • 431

              #21
              Beautiful talk and beautiful thread. Thank you all.

              Gassho,
              Andoitz.

              SatToday.
              太 Tai (Great)
              陽 Yō (Sun)

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              • Toun
                Member
                • Jan 2013
                • 206

                #22
                Daizan

                Thank you for sharing this with us!

                Gassho
                Mike
                Sat2day

                Comment

                • Enjaku
                  Member
                  • Jul 2016
                  • 310

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Daizan
                  It was an actual moment when I saw the cost of embracing the world, of living and loving in a fully human way, and consciously accepted the cost.
                  Thank you, Daizan.
                  Your authenticity really speaks to me. This talk renews my utmost intention, to open my heart to the completeness of reality. Although it is difficult, I know in my heart that pain and fear, the price of the ticket, must also be embraced with compassion.
                  Deep bows,
                  Alex
                  Sat today
                  援若

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