Do we need to practice at real Zendo?

**Kyotai** · 01-20-2016, 06:19 PM

Very well said.

Gassho, Kyotai
Sat today

Originally posted by Geika

I have seen some things and read some things over the years that indicate you must leave home to join a monastery, because if you do not live in a truly Buddhist environment, it is nearly impossible to practice because of the distractions of home life. What I think is wonderful about Treeleaf is that we are all learning how to make home and all of life a practice environment. We can't just go to the zendo and then drop it and go home. The zendo is everywhere and we can't drop it at all. We all are right here, practicing all the time. No home to leave. No illusion of austerity.

I watch videos of things going on at Antaiji and Tassajara and other lovely places and sometimes I feel that I do not have "that." I need "that." But there is no "that." That is just my imagination conjuring up an image of what I think Practice looks like and comparing it to my own way of living. What is happening in those places of practice is no different from what happens in my mind or from what happens in my own home, although it looks a lot more organized. We just sleep, sit, eat, clean, and go to the bathroom. Just taking care of life and trying not to become distracted by illusions. One big illusion for me is a perceived difference between my practice forms and another person's. If we are both sincere, there is no difference.

Gassho, sat today

**alan.r** · 01-20-2016, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Geika

I have seen some things and read some things over the years that indicate you must leave home to join a monastery, because if you do not live in a truly Buddhist environment, it is nearly impossible to practice because of the distractions of home life. What I think is wonderful about Treeleaf is that we are all learning how to make home and all of life a practice environment. We can't just go to the zendo and then drop it and go home. The zendo is everywhere and we can't drop it at all. We all are right here, practicing all the time. No home to leave. No illusion of austerity.

I watch videos of things going on at Antaiji and Tassajara and other lovely places and sometimes I feel that I do not have "that." I need "that." But there is no "that." That is just my imagination conjuring up an image of what I think Practice looks like and comparing it to my own way of living. What is happening in those places of practice is no different from what happens in my mind or from what happens in my own home, although it looks a lot more organized. We just sleep, sit, eat, clean, and go to the bathroom. Just taking care of life and trying not to become distracted by illusions. One big illusion for me is a perceived difference between my practice forms and another person's. If we are both sincere, there is no difference.

Gassho, sat today

I like this a lot. Expressed so well, Geika. Thank you.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

**Frank** · 01-20-2016, 07:10 PM

Geika....well said.
its not just what we do, or don't do, in a monastery or Zendo. As others stated, a great thing about Treeleaf is we practice IN every day life.
Weve read of some who go to a church, temple, etc to learn "all that is good", and then curse and cut off the first person in the parking lot as they leave. What was learned? Where is your practice?

Not dissing anyone for being human, but we do aspire certain precepts, do we not? And here at Treeleaf, we have the opportunity to blend and put into practice, at every moment, what we learn.

and once you've grasped all that...drop it. Let it go.

Frank
Sat today...will be sitting again

**Sekishi** · 01-20-2016, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Jundo

However, doing so has given me a great respect for the several great Japanese priests ... such as Shunryu Suzuki ... who struggled to teach westerners in sometimes halting English. I have become convinced that several of the most "profound" teachings in "Zen Mind Beginners Mind" sound more like a mistranslation due to his wrestling to explain Zen in a foreign language!

I barely understand what I am saying in English sometimes during a Talk ... What must it sound like in Japanese!?!

I love Suzuki Roshi's expression "things as it is". Sometimes speaking English as a second language allowed him great Upaya by intentionally bending grammar around a bit. "Things as it is": "different is not separate", "form is no other than emptiness". Beautiful!

It is a phrase I've come across a number of times in his teachings, but a quick Google search turns up this:

http://cuke.com/pdf-2013/srl/v29-1-using-various-stones.pdf

Gassho,
Sekishi
#SatToday

**Nindo** · 01-20-2016, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Geika

I watch videos of things going on at Antaiji and Tassajara and other lovely places and sometimes I feel that I do not have "that." I need "that." But there is no "that." That is just my imagination conjuring up an image of what I think Practice looks like and comparing it to my own way of living. What is happening in those places of practice is no different from what happens in my mind or from what happens in my own home, although it looks a lot more organized. We just sleep, sit, eat, clean, and go to the bathroom. Just taking care of life and trying not to become distracted by illusions.

Exactly. I used to have a lot of remorse about not being able to go off to a monastery for a year or so. Then I realized they would give me a job there - a kitchen job, or cleaning, or office work, or gardening, or laundry ... Hey, I already have ALL of those! And that's where practice happens, and where the proof of your practice will be in the (actually cooked or figurative) pudding.

Gassho
Nindo

PS That said, I will still make an effort this year to attend a local weekend retreat and possibly a week-long sesshin further away. I know it's a blessing that my life circumstances may allow this.

**Frank** · 01-20-2016, 08:32 PM

Another thought, after re-reading Konans beginning words....
"Do we need to practice at a real Zendo?"

Considering the basic simplicity of what we do. ... Should we need (want?)....?

As others stated...drop the need....drop the thought of "need". ....just do.

All else is moot.

Gassho
Frank
Sat x2 today

**Jundo** · 01-21-2016, 03:24 AM

Hi Guys,

I will say this about monasteries ...

Sometimes folks have postcard images in their minds that a monastery consists of 1000 enlightened people living together in heavenly bliss and harmony. When one actually resides there for a time, one finds just 1000 people with their own foibles (it seems that many people with "issues" are drawn to being monks, and they do not always leave those issues at the door), personalities, frictions, little and big problems, ambitions for promotion, and schedules to keep. People are people. One does not come to the monastery because one is already enlightened ... one comes because one is not.

Further, I did a series of "bring it down to earth ... my version of Penn & Teller's 'Bull**it' ... about monasteries "back in the good old days of the Middle Ages" and how it may not all have been golden, how lay folks may have some advantages now that even Dogen's monks did not have. Please have a look at the series of essays and talks, I think there are four, scattered through this thread ...

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Knocking Down Monastery Walls - Treeleaf Zendo

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?8675-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Knocking-Down-Monastery-Walls

. I often feel that monastic practice is so "yesterday" ... so "13th Century".It's true, and in some very important ways, it may be time to knock down the monasteries, throwing their cloistered inhabitants into the streets! ** For most of its history, lay practice has taken a back seat to the "real

I don't mean that monasteries are bad places at all (far from it!), and there are many advantages and strong points. I just meant the criticism as a counter-weight to overly idealistic and unbalanced images. Truly, the monasteries are filled with seekers and generally nice people ... so somewhere between Shangri-La and "the Office", and the morality is much MUCH better than "Game of Thrones".

Truly, generally good people doing their best.

Gassho, Jundo

**Anshu Bryson** · 01-21-2016, 06:35 AM

Maybe I'm reading too much into it (or being judgmental myself?) but I think there are a few defensive, almost harsh responses to Mr. K's query. It was a question after all, not a criticism. I don't think for a moment that he doesn't see Treeleaf as "real", just that it is not a 'brick-and-mortar' Zendo. So, is there a difference? Personally, I do think there is a distinct difference between the experience of sitting at home and sitting 'in' the Zendo. I have sat 'virtually' at Treeleaf, and I have sat 'physically' at Treeleaf; I'd be there physically all the time if it wasn't in another country!

There are many types of place to sit and/or to study; all are different. The large monasteries are different from a more organic place like Antaiji, which is different again from a small, more personal Zendo like Anonji, which is different from both the physical and virtual manifestations of Treeleaf. All have their merit. All have a slightly different purpose, so all have a slightly different approach. While zen itself might have 'no gaining idea', each of those places has a 'purpose', whether to train monks, to give people an opportunity to practice in close contact with a teacher, or to be "a practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs"...

All different; all valid.

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

**Jundo** · 01-21-2016, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Anshu Bryson

Maybe I'm reading too much into it (or being judgmental myself?) but I think there are a few defensive, almost harsh responses to Mr. K's query. It was a question after all, not a criticism. I don't think for a moment that he doesn't see Treeleaf as "real", just that it is not a 'brick-and-mortar' Zendo. So, is there a difference? Personally, I do think there is a distinct difference between the experience of sitting at home and sitting 'in' the Zendo. I have sat 'virtually' at Treeleaf, and I have sat 'physically' at Treeleaf; I'd be there physically all the time if it wasn't in another country!

There are many types of place to sit and/or to study; all are different. The large monasteries are different from a more organic place like Antaiji, which is different again from a small, more personal Zendo like Anonji, which is different from both the physical and virtual manifestations of Treeleaf. All have their merit. All have a slightly different purpose, so all have a slightly different approach. While zen itself might have 'no gaining idea', each of those places has a 'purpose', whether to train monks, to give people an opportunity to practice in close contact with a teacher, or to be "a practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs"...

All different; all valid.

Gassho,
Anshu

-sat today-

Thank you, Anshu, for a good reminder not to be defensive, nor to hold ourselves above or apart from anyone. All are what they are, everything in the sun having its place. Our weak points may be their strong points, perhaps we supplement them too.

No need for a cheer ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAX6-N3OE0M

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

**Kairu** · 01-21-2016, 12:55 PM

I don't think there's a problem sitting online with people, nor do I think there's a problem with Jundo training would-be (or will-be) priests through the power of the internet. Nor do I think mailing a Rakusu back panel to a person who has gone through Jukai is problematic.

However, I can see where the concern comes into play here. Some people might be skeptical because anyone here could be faking all along. Now I'm not saying anyone here is, I'm just saying that the concern about this "online Zendo phenomenon" isn't unwarranted.

I think sitting with real people can be good, but is it necessary? No, I don't think so. I believe that as long as Treeleaf continues to draw in intellectually and spiritually honest people, then this is a legitimate and good place to grow ones practice.

However!... I did decide to do a little more research and I finally found Mahayana "style" temple very close to me. I guess I'll go to their Thursday "zazenkai" (even though that's not what they call it, lol).

Virtual temple?
Wooden temple?
Does the dharma care or judge where it is followed?

Kyle
Sat2day.

**RichardH** · 01-21-2016, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Anshu Bryson

Maybe I'm reading too much into it (or being judgmental myself?) but I think there are a few defensive, almost harsh responses to Mr. K's query. -

I first came to Treeleaf because the project is timely and worthwhile. When looking at how many people attended B+M temples, connected with a teacher, and committed to a practice, in comparison to the vast number of people who do not, and would benefit from it, it made the Mahayana claim of the Zen community seem a bit vain. I saw the sometimes harsh response Jundo received for his efforts elsewhere and probably joined in piling-on at one point. Buddhist practice was only bricks and mortar for about 15 years until I decided to explore the Dharma online, and it was a bit of a shock a first. There was very poor behaviour, fundamentalism, and just a lot of things going on that did not resemble offline Sangha. I also saw how the anonymity of medium brought out less noble qualities in myself. Online Buddhism had low credibility for some good reasons. That low credibility is what Treeleaf set out to change, and it is making headway. This is a long winded way of saying you are probably right about harshness or defensiveness. I tend to be impatient with the "real" sangha discussion, and should be mindful, because it is not about to go away.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

**Getchi** · 01-21-2016, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Jundo

You do fine.

I feel that you are a bit stressed right now with the new job and life changes you mentioned on the Nishijima Roshi thread. That probably has you a bit off balance.

Sawaki Roshi once said ...

You can’t even trade a single fart with the next guy. Each and every one of us has to live out his own life. Don’t waste time thinking about who’s most talented.

●屁ひとつだって、人と貸し借りできんやないか。人人みな「自己」を生きねばならない。お前とわしとどちらが器量がいいか悪いかーそんなこと比べてみんかてええ。

Find your own, but here is mine.

When I was in the hospital room with my nearly dying daughter, crying yet completely at peace ... as one.

When the sun rose, and it was so beautiful ... and I did not try to hold on to it or make it more.

When the car crashed, and that was just what was. I was shaking for a time, took some time to heal ... but somehow it was just what was.

As I get older, the time passes, I get even older, health this and that... and all not a problem.

When there are big problems in my life which I work to fix (like with you, Mr. K. and everyone ) .... but also feeling nothing to fix. Fix and no fix as one.

When my best friend died last year, and I missed him so much and grieved at the loss ... yet felt no loss at all, all as one. Big Buddha Smile crossed my face as a tear came down my eye.

When I find my heart opening to other people.

Those are just examples, but each and every day has so many "litmus test" opportunities to put this Practice to the test.

Stuff like that. Find your own.

You know it when you taste it.

Gassho, J

Thankyou Jundo

SaToday
Geoff

**Shinzan** · 01-21-2016, 04:47 PM

Does everyone realize how amazing this discussion has been???? How rare in the history of human consciousness???? From all over the planet, all around the Tower of Babel, people can share their affinity for wisdom and compassion in a safe and helpful dialog. I'm blown away!!!
ROCK ON!
_/st\_ Shinzan