If Dogen worked for me......

[Jundo]

On another note, Jundo, I tend to get a bit worried when people start talking about secular mindfulness. I know you mentioned other aspects of the teachings in your bit about a "totally" not Buddhist mindfulness manual, and I hope a formal system of ethics is among those other aspects. If that is not addressed, there is potential for negative results. I won't go into detal about that here, but, suffice it to say, that potential is what led me to the Buddhist path, and away from systems that were more pragmatic, or even ethically dubious.

Gassho,
Carey sat today.

Ethics certainly must be a part not to be omitted. Basically, what I envision is a Path with all the content and Teachings of "Buddhism" but without the name "Buddhism" so that it is more acceptable to those in a civil, secular, areligious way. It would be parallel to what we undertake here with the robes, statues and Sutra chanting. The wisdom of the "Precepts" will be there, no matter whether one calls them "humanistic ethical principles" or any other name.

Why?

Just to be more acceptable to folks who would run from "Buddhism", and to places in society which cannot support a particular religious culture (for the same reason that they would not put up a Nativity Scene at their door).

However, some basic content no matter the name and presentation.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi,

Buddhist ethics can be taught without the "B" word by discussing environment/save the planet.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jeremy]

I have to say that I think the professor makes a good point. I've often wondered if I hadn't sat Vipassana first, if I would've as easily (though it wasn't necessarily "easy") made the switch to shikantaza.

Hi Alan,

I agree that Prof Hyvärinen makes some good points, and I like his sense of humour (-:

There's a parallel with the point you make (about having sat Vipassana before shikantaza) in Sheng Yen's "Method of No Method", which teaches Chan Silent Illumination. The book is basically a Silent Illumination retreat in which Silent Illumination is broken down into a number of stages. In the introduction, Guo Gu explains that Sheng Yen used to teach Silent Illumination directly and that this worked because Sheng Yen was personally present to direct those on retreats whenever it was appropriate. Later on, when he wasn't able to be present at retreats so much, he developed a method which involves 3 stages, culminating in the practice of Silent Illumination. Through experience, Sheng Yen had found that learning Silent Illumination directly can be too difficult for a lot of people.

step lightly... stay free...
Jeremy
st

[Rich]

Ethics certainly must be a part not to be omitted. Basically, what I envision is a Path with all the content and Teachings of "Buddhism" but without the name "Buddhism" so that it is more acceptable to those in a civil, secular, areligious way. It would be parallel to what we undertake here with the robes, statues and Sutra chanting. The wisdom of the "Precepts" will be there, no matter whether one calls them "humanistic ethical principles" or any other name.

Why?

Just to be more acceptable to folks who would run from "Buddhism", and to places in society which cannot support a particular religious culture (for the same reason that they would not put up a Nativity Scene at their door).

However, some basic content no matter the name and presentation.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

I would support this direction.

I think the more people that gain entry to a meditative practice, the better the world will be.

SAT today

[Jundo]

Hi Alan,

I agree that Prof Hyvärinen makes some good points, and I like his sense of humour (-:

There's a parallel with the point you make (about having sat Vipassana before shikantaza) in Sheng Yen's "Method of No Method", which teaches Chan Silent Illumination. The book is basically a Silent Illumination retreat in which Silent Illumination is broken down into a number of stages. In the introduction, Guo Gu explains that Sheng Yen used to teach Silent Illumination directly and that this worked because Sheng Yen was personally present to direct those on retreats whenever it was appropriate. Later on, when he wasn't able to be present at retreats so much, he developed a method which involves 3 stages, culminating in the practice of Silent Illumination. Through experience, Sheng Yen had found that learning Silent Illumination directly can be too difficult for a lot of people.

step lightly... stay free...
Jeremy
st

Hi Jeremy,

I have found that what Sheng Yen teaches as Silent Illumination is very different from Shikantaza. Different chefs, different ways to bake a cake. It takes the practice away from Just Sitting. It is a powerful practice, I am sure, but his interpretation has an emphasis on reaching very special states of deep dropping away that is far from Shikantaza. Here is a description of his "second stage" and "third stage"

UNIFIED MIND
When your discriminating mind diminishes, your narrow sense of self diminishes as well. Your field of awareness—which is at first the totality of the body—naturally opens up to include the external environment. Inside and outside become one. In the beginning, you may still notice that a sound is coming from a certain direction or that your mind follows distinct events within the environment, such as someone moving. But as you continue, these distinctions fade. You are aware of events around you, but they do not leave traces. You no longer feel that the environment is out there and you are in here. The environment poses no opposition or burden. It just is. If you are sitting, then the environment is you, sitting. If you have left your seat and are walking about, then the environment is still you, in all of your actions. This experience, the second stage of silent illumination, is called the oneness of self and others.

Can you still hear sounds? Yes. Can you get up to have a drink of water or urinate? Of course. Is there mentation? Yes. You have thoughts as you need them to respond to the world, but they are not self-referential. Compassion naturally arises when it is needed; it has nothing to do with emotion. There is an intimacy with everything around you that is beyond words and descriptions. When you urinate, the body, urine, and toilet are not separate. Indeed, you all have a wonderful dialogue!

...

There are progressively deeper states of this second stage. When you enter a state in which the environment is you sitting, the environment may become infinite and boundless, bringing about a state of oneness with the universe. The whole world is your body sitting there. Time passes quickly and space is limitless. You are not caught up in the particulars of the environment. There is just openness of mind, clarity, and a sense of the infinite. This is not yet the realization of no-self; it is the experience of great self.

At this point, three subtler experiences may occur, all related to the sense of great self. The first is infinite light. The light is you, and you experience a sense of oneness, infinity, and clarity.

The second experience is infinite sound. This is not the sound of cars, dogs, or something similar. Nor is it like music or anything else you have ever heard. It is a primordial, elemental sound that is one with the experience of vastness. It is harmonious in all places, without reference or attribution.

The third experience is voidness. But this is not the emptiness of self-nature or of no-self that would constitute enlightenment. This is a spacious voidness in which there is nothing but the pure vastness of space. Although you do not experience a sense of self, a subtle form of self and object still exists.

...

NO-SELF, NO-MIND
The clarity of the second stage is like looking through a spotless window. You can see through it very well, almost as if the window were not there, but it is there. In the second stage, the self lies dormant but subtle self-grasping is present. In other words, seeing through a window, even a very clean one, is not the same as seeing through no window at all. Seeing through no window is one way of describing the state of enlightenment, which is the third stage. In utter clarity, the mind is unmoving. Why? Because there is no self-referential mind.

http://www.lionsroar.com/you-are-already-enlightened/

Sheng-yen was a wonderful Teacher, I am sure, as is Guo Gu. However, they are running after special and highly concentrated mind states which, while attainable and wonderful to experience, are not the Pointless Point of Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

I love your questions as they force me to consider what is right at the heart of Zen practice and, as normal, a good discussion has ensued. It is also a challenge to put things in English rather than Zen speak. Zen speak can be helpful to some folk but it can also be a total turn-off.

My take on shikantaza/enlightenment is that dukkha arises from wanting things to be different than they are, creating a split and emotional friction. By sitting with things just as they are and not judging that, dukkha falls away.

However, an important 'but' is that if we take an attitude of achieving something onto the cushion we are saying we need things to be different so the split is already there at the beginning of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck noted that it is not uncommon for Buddhists to drop ideas of wanting a better job/car/relationship as the answer to their dissatisfaction but to replace those as answers with satori/enlightenment. Whenever we say that life cannot be good enough without enlightenment we are setting aside our happiness now for some unknown future and thereby creating dukkha.

When we sit upright fully immersed in things as they are, eventually a smile comes from deep within and we think 'this, right here, right now, it is enough.' May not be as blinding as satori emerging from intense koan practice but dropping the striving mind brings a sense of peace and relief and allows us to engage fully with life in this very moment. As long as we are expecting something from practice, even this, rather than just paying attention to life, separation from life will remain. Expect nothing more than life as it is. Each practice, as each moment in life, is its own unique event, not a precursor to something else. Just as we enjoy music for its own sake rather than think of what we are achieving by listening to it, a similar attitude can be helpful in sitting.

Hope that is plain speak enough.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday (with my daughter and a guided meditation called 'Sitting Still Like a Frog'!)

[alan.r]

But, otherwise, that Professor is talking out of his hat. So many things in life are hard.

Yes, I agree - and really the main idea of the professor's I agree with was what you explained more fully, that certain zen notions and shikantaza itself can be pretty difficult for anyone at first. And while that point makes sense to me (that teaching zen is difficult (which is all he's really saying, right, that it's a "pedagogical nightmare"?), after that he is sort of spinning his philosophical/theory wheels.

And Jundo, I would be very happy to be an editor if you need one for the book you mentioned. I second Rich's thoughts about that: feels necessary.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

So I've read this thread and I've been doing some thinking about what was said and the video and I have a few thoughts I would like to share and if I'm wrong in my thinking perhaps someone would be able to set me straight. Two things that noticed in the thread is the value of Zazen and feeling like a phony or fake. I think Zazen might be a necessary but not sufficient condition for the life of a Bodhisattva. That is we need to do Zazen but if we then turn around and break the precepts frequently (for poor reasons) we're still leading lives that cause ourselves and others pain. I feel like here is where I should say what happens if we just follow the precepts without Zazen. I'm not sure because I'm not sure what Zazen does yet. But for me at this point in my practice, I think it helps me letting go of those things that tempt me to break the precepts. I don't want to go into detail but over the last few days there have been numerous times I wanted to discuss the faults of others (one person in particular) and I held back quite a bit (not completely.) At least that's where my heart-mind is right now.

Feeling like a fake? I would chalk that up to doing something that's very new for you. Especially if you don't see people doing it regularly. I feel that way when I feel like I have to dance at a social function. As if dancing wasn't for me . In my own practice I recently started bowing to the toilet (during the weekend retreat but I'm still doing it.) Sometimes I feel silly but I've also been thinking about how important the modern toilet is for my life. I think those feelings are the result of moving outside ones comfort zone. We spend much of our lives trying to maintain stability in both our behaviors and environments. We also like novelty but its usually within the context of stability or a reworking of something familiar e.g. most stores have a beginning, middle and end etc... So that feeling of fake-ness can tell you a lot about how you see yourself. I once heard a man describe the mind as a prison for the body. I think it might be appropriate for this conversation.

As for the Professor I don't know if hes giving Dogen a fair shake (perhaps he is.) Does anyone know who his audience was? Or why he wrote anything? These aren't retorical questions and if there is a brief outline of Dogen as a teacher someone could direct me to I would appreciate it.

Anywho, just my thoughts.

Gassho
Adam
Sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi Adam,

The Precepts guide us to live freer from excess desire, anger, jealousy, divisive thinking and the like ... which nurtures our Zazen.

Zazen helps us better live by the Precepts ... freer from excess desire, anger, jealousy, divisive thinking and the like.

A mutually supportive circle ... Zazen is the Precepts, the Precepts just Zazen.

As to the professor, I would not worry too much about his personal opinion on Zazen. Likewise, he does not need to heed my expert opinions on neuroscience. The first talk discusses how he himself struggled in meditation ...

There is a whole series of discussions between him and the Zen performance artist beyond the above ... there are 4 parts including "Do Robots Meditate?" ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvrn_spPETI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf2Mws9v6xQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2fk6yQOSas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIYyNTR7kds

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Hoseki]

Hi Adam,

The Precepts guide us to live freer from excess desire, anger, jealousy, divisive thinking and the like ... which nurtures our Zazen.

Zazen helps us better live by the Precepts ... freer from excess desire, anger, jealousy, divisive thinking and the like.

A mutually supportive circle ... Zazen is the Precepts, the Precepts just Zazen.

As to the professor, I would not worry to much about his personal opinion on Zazen. Likewise, he does not need to heed my expert opinions on neuroscience. The first talk discusses how he himself struggled in meditation ...

There is a whole series of discussions between him and the Zen performance artist beyond the above ... there are 4 parts including "Do Robots Meditate?" ...

...

Gassho, J

SatToday

Gassho

Adam
Sattoday

[scareyw]

Buddhist ethics can be taught without the "B" word by discussing environment/save the planet.

Yes, you can guide people without the "B" word. I don't think an environmental focus is necessarily the best way to go, however. First, because that "E" word can be just as controversial. It would be wise to not alienate a large number of people right out of the gate. Second, a single point of direction is bit too nebulous. There is a reason Buddhism employs a list of ethical precepts, whether it be 10 or 5, rather than just saying "Do no harm." The small self is a slippery critter; it can justify a lot of behaviors that could be harmful, if the harm is not directly apparent. A simple list, with a little bit of explanation for each point, can do a lot to direct a sound interpretation. Obviously there is still wiggle room, and that's necessary if you're trying to help people develop a dynamic, whole way of approaching life, rather than producing mindless drones that parrot concepts. You just don't want to leave their minds so open that their brains fall out.

Back to Buddhism, and Soto Zen in particular. I draw attention to ethics because of our emphasis on Shikantaza. I agree whole-heartedly that sitting is mandatory for progress. It appears to me that this emphasis exists to contrast other approaches that neglect practice. Sitting teaches us the mindfulness and patience (among other things) that we need in our daily lives, so we can successfully apply the other teachings. I could be seeing narrowly here, but it appears to me that this emphasis can eclipse other aspects at times. I think the precepts play an absolutely equal role to sitting, and deserve the same level of emphasis. Aside from that, cultivation of metta is also, important, though may not require as much diect emphasis. It should not get swept under the rug. I feel like that happens at times.

So, why do I bring this stuff up? The elephant that's standing in the room. Those enlightenment experiences that so many people like to get hung up on. They can happen. They do happen, for alot of people. When you go poking about, examining the nature of self, there is a real potential that you will see past it. The boundaries drop away, true reality is reflected in the awareness, just like the moon in the drop of water. It can be profound and life changing. It's also impermanent. That experience, like any experience can become a drug, something to chase and grasp at. It can be seductive, even if you've never had it. Our practice is letting go. Not grasping. These experiences are not a goal. They're scenery along the path. Why do I even bring it up? What do you suppose the outcome is, of realizing that your true nature is timeless infinity, and that all the form we experience is empty, if you don't have some sense of loving-kindness and a formal ethical guideline to keep you grounded in that vast formlessness. Those experiences do not magically give you perfect permanent wisdom. Without proper guidance, it can lead to nihilism, egocentrism, and in extreme circumstances, insanity. If you want an example of this, go find a biography or documantary about Aleister Crowley. I generally hesitate to talk abut this stuff, but I think people get caught up in sunshine and butterflies, and neglect to consider that this can be dangerous work, if the proper guides are not set in place.

This is a lovely, powerful practice with huge potential to end dukkha, and Soto Zen is very gentle and responsible in it's methods, while being effective. That's why I'm here, and not in one of the other traditions, religions, or systems I've studied and practced. I just feel like (possibly erroneously) the emphasis on sitting can, sometimes generate a sense of priority over the precepts. If that priority makes it's way into a secular interpretation, there is real potential for disaster. I'm not saying anyone here lacks the wisdom to see that, especially Jundo (he has dharma transmisson after all, I don't think Nishijima Roshi was the type to hand out transmission like Halloween candy). I just percieve a spot may need attention. I'm under no delusion that my perception perfect. Neither am I under the delusion that anyone else's perception is perfect. Thus I put these words out there just in case there is a need for them. Not because I think I'm some kind of expert, I'm not. I say all of this in the spirit of reserved caution, and deep respect for Soto and all of you fine folks.

Gassho,
Carey sat today.

[Jundo]

Hi Carey,

Well, our ongoing and every day and every choice in life study of the Precepts continues ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?57-JUKAI-PRECEPTS-STUDY-SEWING-FORUM-%28Oryoki-Too%21%29

.., we have a daily recommended Metta Practice too ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6020-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Metta-PRACTICE

All is Zazen, Zazen just All That.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[scareyw]

Oh, I know. I appreciate it too. Like I said, It's because I percieve a very strong emphasis on sitting. I'm not saying those elements are not here.

Gassho,
Cary ST

[Oheso]

Hi Jeremy,

I have found that what Sheng Yen teaches as Silent Illumination is very different from Shikantaza. Different chefs, different ways to bake a cake. It takes the practice away from Just Sitting. It is a powerful practice, I am sure, but his interpretation has an emphasis on reaching very special states of deep dropping away that is far from Shikantaza. Here is a description of his "second stage" and "third stage"



Sheng-yen was a wonderful Teacher, I am sure, as is Guo Gu. However, they are running after special and highly concentrated mind states which, while attainable and wonderful to experience, are not the Pointless Point of Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jundo Sensei, would you please critique what you quote of Shen Yen's description of his stages above and how they do not pertain to the pointless point of shikantaza? thank you, gassho, O

sat today

[Doshin]

This has been a very interesting read, though I did not understand it all! I find the science of ecology much easier, but have the strong sense they are the same

But the question/feelings that began the discourse was very similar to my feelings for the half century of my on and off relationship to meditation. In the late 1960s TM was the thing where I was experiencing life.. I had expectations that I would achieve a constant state of bliss. That did not happen, but for reasons not fully understood I always felt I needed to return to meditation. I would, then I Would drift away....many, many excuses I would give to myself to justify that but I knew they were words without conviction. So, I would return. But like many here I had no teacher but a book, no sanghas were near. The last 15 years I have attended retreats and drop visited in a few sanghas as my career/life moved me around the country.

i always questioned things, hence my love and life in the sciences. This also led me to try and understand Zen but I am not sure I am any further along in that understanding nor do I think I am way behind, I am just where I at trying to learn from all of you and others. However in recent years my drive to understand has waned. I then doubt myself, am I a quitter?

I long ago stopped wondering of my origin, I am just here on this beautiful place and hope to just enjoy/experience more no matter what life throws at me. Not easy, not easy at all....but I see no other choice.

With that said, Jundo's words below wrapped my feelings into words that helped me understand where my "feelings" reside at this time. Thank you for providing a platform for my thoughts I can build from.

"The Precepts guide us to live freer from excess desire, anger, jealousy, divisive thinking and the like ... which nurtures our Zazen.

Zazen helps us better live by the Precepts ... freer from excess desire, anger, jealousy, divisive thinking and the like.

A mutually supportive circle ... Zazen is the Precepts, the Precepts just Zazen.

So I strive to keep sitting, accepting, and understanding is not as important to me anymore. And like another has said here my understanding of zen talk is very limited....though I somewhat enjoy the puzzle it creates, even while feeling indequate...a fake as said earlier...which I just can not solve. I have not articulated that perspective out loud or even to myself before now. But is is where I think I am.

Excuse my thinking out loud, I am trying to put things in perspective for me and do welcome thoughts to help clear the fog.

Gassho


Randy
sattoday