If Dogen worked for me......

[Jundo]

Jundo Sensei, would you please critique what you quote of Shen Yen's description of his stages above and how they do not pertain to the pointless point of shikantaza? thank you, gassho, O

sat today

Hi Oheso,

Not a criticism, just a difference in approach.

Many forms of meditation focus on reaching rather intense, extra-ordinary and highly concentrated mind states. So, for example, Ven. Sheng Yen and Guo Gu speak of:

... When you urinate, the body, urine, and toilet are not separate. Indeed, you all have a wonderful dialogue! ... [Then] There are progressively deeper states of this second stage. ... the environment may become infinite and boundless, bringing about a state of oneness with the universe. ... The second experience is infinite sound. This is not the sound of cars, dogs, or something similar. Nor is it like music or anything else you have ever heard. It is a primordial, elemental sound that is one with the experience of vastness. It is harmonious in all places, without reference or attribution. ... In utter clarity, the mind is unmoving. Why? Because there is no self-referential mind.

Having such experiences is wonderful and powerful when they occur, and each can be a great insight into and piercing of the "self-other divide", "Emptiness" and impermanence, the underlying light, peace and harmony which can be found when the divisive mind is put aside. Koan centered Zazen with a heavy emphasis on reaching a radical "Kensho" is another way. In Shikantaza too, one may sometimes experience such perspectives (because subject-object is transcended, we can better call some of them "non-perspectives") as well, and they are important and to be cherished when they occur, but reaching so is not the emphasis or central point. My own view is that getting "hooked" into running after such states is like seeking an intense drug trip (and, truly, some narcotics might actually get one there faster and with more intensity than years of meditation).

In Shikantaza, the great insight into and piercing of the "self-other divide", "Emptiness" and impermanence, the underlying light, peace and harmony etc. fills life and arises from our marrow in a more subtle way. The best analogy I have for this is my "bus trip to visit the Grand Canyon". I already posted the following once in this thread, but I will do so again here because I feel it that important.

Through Shikantaza, one realizes that all the wonder has been present in this world, right before one's eyes (and one's eyes too) all along.

=====================

Dogen tended to speak of "Enlightenment" ... not as some momentary experience to attain ... but as "Practice-Enlightenment", emphasizing that how we make Buddha Wisdom and Compassion manifest in our actual words, thoughts and deeds in this life is the real "Kensho".

These momentary Kensho [or other] experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. This can be much more profound and enveloping than a sensation of "I" feeling oneness or awe. HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination .

The following is important, so BOLDFACE and UNDERLINE ...

Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. The "Grand Canyon" or "Top of Mt. Everest" is a wonderful place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there. Scratching one's nose, taking out the trash, feeding the baby ... when we come to perceive this world as such ... is all as much the "Buddhaland" as anything with rainbow colored trees and cotton candy castles in the sky. In fact, the canyon vistas and the mountain top are ever before your eyes even now ... in the trash, your nose, in the hungry baby [(even in Mara!)]... although maybe hard to see. The most "boring and ordinary, beautiful or ugly" of this world is Extraordinary and Beautiful when properly understood.

In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm.

Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a sovenier, then wonder "is that all it is"?

I once wrote this on such Kensho (Seeing One's Nature) experiences ...

For Kensho is, in fact, special as special ever has been or could be … a sacred jewel, key to the path, life’s vitality realized … nothing other than special!

Yet Kensho is “nothing special” in that each and all facets of this life-world-self, bar none, are vital, sacred, a unique treasure – and every step of the path is central to the path. The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

That is why many Soto folks, like Sawaki Roshi above, think "Kensho Schmensho" ... running after some timelessly momentary fireworky experience of "Kensho" is not True "Grocking the Nature" Buddha-Bus Kensho. He says ...

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Oheso]

thank you Jundo. I understand now that Sheng Yen's Silent Illumination places more emphasis on the importance of the kensho/ satori/ enlightenment experience than does the Soto school. I understand the main issue to be the separation of practice from enlightenment, which Dogen equates, by making practice the means to attain enlightenment. correctamundo?

much more than I need or am able to wrap it around to practice? thank you for this teaching. gassho, O, who, today

sat

ps. at least if I see that Beautiful Canyon where I can't live go past the window, I'll know I'm on the right bus, going in the direction I thought I was.
(said the New Yorker)

[Jeremy]

Do I guess the fraud is this. The feeling that sitting like this is no different than dressing up as a Jedi, or a Wizard, or a Zen monk....its hollow (speaking for myself of course) and there's nothing going on, on that cushion.

Lot of waffle but thought it might work that way

Tony...

Just to add that for me, there is something going on. When I get an itch during Zazen, generally I don't scratch it. I doubt I've ever done this before.

step lightly... stay free...
Jeremy
st

[dharmasponge]

I'm using this thread like a handbook! Thanks for a your replies....still wading through them.

Jundo, I'm a CBT therapist working in the NHS here in the UK. I'm exposed almost daily to 'psychologies' take on mindfulness. I share your views and likely your concerns. I too was considering writing regarding this. Maybe we could make it a joint effort? I'd be more than happy to offer a view from a clinicians experience who also happens to be Buddhist. Please do PM me if you'd like to discuss this.

Tony...

[dharmasponge]

So, how could sitting in the Total Immersion of Satisfaction as Just This, beyond judgment, within Completeness, dropping all frictions and fighting, not measuring time, without thought of "life vs. death" and all other mental categories and divisions. letting the hard borders between "self" and the rest of this life and world soften or fully drop away ...

... how could that be the "delusion"?

Thats my point though - 'HOW' do we do this...or how do we 'NOT' do this.

'...sitting in the Total Immersion of Satisfaction...' doesn't just happen by just sitting. It happens (I'd posit) as a result, a consequence.

Tony

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Just let yourself feel so, psyche yourself into feeling so if you need, fake it until you make it. Pretend that you are sitting there feeling in the bones "this is complete" and, well, it may actually begin to seem so.

Once I was in a school play, Death of a Salesman, playing one of the sons. Nervous, stage fright. Head full of all manner of thoughts and "what ifs". Suddenly, I put that aside, said to myself that I would just fake and feel that I was a confident actor ... and my fake confidence became real as real can be. I really embodied the part.

Olympic athletes visualize, psyche themselves, put aside other thoughts and considerations. Why not just try to do so too? If Zazen is a "enactment ritual", pretend you are Buddha and Ancestors sitting.

Am I telling you to be false and fake it? Actually, since in Buddhist terms the feelings of lack and separation are considered the "false" and the "delusion", I am telling you actually to "unfake it till you unmake it" to embody what you have been all along (thus we say more a "non-making" for it has always been so though hidden by your delusive thoughts). You are "pretending" to attain the real, so maybe it is more an "undoing of pretending". What we take to be "reality" is the "fictional theatre" after all, so I am advising you to "psyche" yourself into the "unrole".

One time, many years ago, I was feeling darkly depressed, hopeless and uneasy. I decided to pretend (yes, just pretend to myself) that I was actually quite happy, hopeful and content. I plastered a fake grin on my face, and thought positive thoughts. Guess what? After just a few minutes of trying to pretend, like an actor playing a role, I actually started to feel so. I believe that that moment was the first step to my gaining control over the years of depression that had plagued me as a young man.

Ever experience a sense in life of the "timeless", or that one moment contains all moments of time? That all is interconnected? Even if the memory is vague to you now, pretend it is strong. Sit with the self-conviction in the bones that "this moment of sitting is all time, is all connection, is all phenomena right here". Use "method acting" or, in this case "non-method acting".

This, I advise our sitters ...

If you simply sit with the attitude that your Zazen in that moment is "perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... then IT IS! IT IS because you learn to treat and taste it as so. Your learning how to treat it as so, makes it so. If you can learn to sit there feeling about Zazen, and all of life, that "there is not one thing to add or take away" ... then, guess what: there is not one thing to add or take away precisely because you feel that way. Each moment is perfectly whole when you can see each moment as perfectly whole. Time stops when you stop thinking about time. Each instant of time is perfect when you think it perfect.

Curtain Up!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo, sounds almost Tantric in terms of bringing the goal into the present. Like Generation Stage, seeing yourself as a deity until it actually happens. Just a comparison.

I do like the idea of 'Fake it till you Make it'

SatToday

[tlap]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

[Byokan]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

Trish,

so beautiful, thank you. Deep bows to this practice.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jundo]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

[Jinyo]

Thanks Jundo, sounds almost Tantric in terms of bringing the goal into the present. Like Generation Stage, seeing yourself as a deity until it actually happens. Just a comparison.

I do like the idea of 'Fake it till you Make it'

SatToday

Not disagreeing Tony - but doesn't this resonate in some way with CBT/mindfulness practice?

Gassho

Willow

sat today

[Jinyo]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

'Plain' words spun into gold Trish - thank you so much.



Willow

sat today

[dharmasponge]

Not disagreeing Tony - but doesn't this resonate in some way with CBT/mindfulness practice?

Gassho

Willow

sat today

The Mindfulness I have been witness to as a CBT therapist is so far removed from Buddhist practice, it needs to be renamed. I have sat in classes and been given a sultana to concentrate on....feel, taste etc...! I mean I think I get it....but then I also get Monty Python!

There may be some overtones of cognitive restructuring in there but I think the Tantric agenda is a different thong altogether.

Tony...

Sat today

[Jishin]

If Dogen worked for me......

Hi Tony,

As a therapist you know that you don't do CBT in spite of what you may tell your patients. You do Eclectic - whatever works. For me, I adapt Shikantaza to meet my particular path. I suspect everybody does it a little different too. They do what works. This being so, there is no right way nor wrong way to do it as long as you stop chasing your shadow. Just my opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyonin]

Thank you Kokuu.

Pretty much what I think and how I see things.

Just today, when my zazen timer rang the ending bell, I realized I had this huge smile in my face. My 40 minutes just went away like water.

Yes! One smiles a lot in this practice.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatAndSmiledToday

Hi Tony

I love your questions as they force me to consider what is right at the heart of Zen practice and, as normal, a good discussion has ensued. It is also a challenge to put things in English rather than Zen speak. Zen speak can be helpful to some folk but it can also be a total turn-off.

My take on shikantaza/enlightenment is that dukkha arises from wanting things to be different than they are, creating a split and emotional friction. By sitting with things just as they are and not judging that, dukkha falls away.

However, an important 'but' is that if we take an attitude of achieving something onto the cushion we are saying we need things to be different so the split is already there at the beginning of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck noted that it is not uncommon for Buddhists to drop ideas of wanting a better job/car/relationship as the answer to their dissatisfaction but to replace those as answers with satori/enlightenment. Whenever we say that life cannot be good enough without enlightenment we are setting aside our happiness now for some unknown future and thereby creating dukkha.

When we sit upright fully immersed in things as they are, eventually a smile comes from deep within and we think 'this, right here, right now, it is enough.' May not be as blinding as satori emerging from intense koan practice but dropping the striving mind brings a sense of peace and relief and allows us to engage fully with life in this very moment. As long as we are expecting something from practice, even this, rather than just paying attention to life, separation from life will remain. Expect nothing more than life as it is. Each practice, as each moment in life, is its own unique event, not a precursor to something else. Just as we enjoy music for its own sake rather than think of what we are achieving by listening to it, a similar attitude can be helpful in sitting.

Hope that is plain speak enough.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday (with my daughter and a guided meditation called 'Sitting Still Like a Frog'!)