If Dogen worked for me......

[dharmasponge]

...I'd likely fire him!

But seriously, here's the question - How does Zazen equate with Enlightenment?

I loved the allegory of the Golden Carp, so I am comfortable with the practice now and I am moving more easily in Zazen - however, this particular bit still leaves me utterly confused.

How is just sitting the same as the Buddhas Enlightenment? He taught the end of suffering, how is Zazen just this?

Thanks!

Tony - Will be sitting later _/|\_

[Myosha]

Hello,

'Just sitting' satisfies.

". . . end of suffering,"?

Check!



Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Jundo]

I loved the allegory of the Golden Carp

Are you referring to this Koan from the Blue Cliff Record?

Attention! San-cho asked Sep-po: "What (Why?) does a mysterious golden-scaled carp escaped from the fishing net cast? " Sep-po said, "I would like to wait for your coming out of the fishing net and then answer you."

Maybe I should wait for you to slip out the net before addressing the rest?

But seriously, here's the question - How does Zazen equate with Enlightenment?

...

How is just sitting the same as the Buddhas Enlightenment? He taught the end of suffering, how is Zazen just this?

_

Very simple really. One just sitting whole without lack or need for further ado, such is the Way of Zazen. As nothing lacks, where is there room for Dukkha?

However, when the little self itself feels and itself judges "something lacks, I need something more" and goes hunting for it, well, as Dogen said,

The Way is originally perfect and all-pervading. ... The true vehicle is self-sufficient. ... And yet, if there is a hairsbreadth deviation, it is like the gap between heaven and earth. If the least like or dislike arises, the mind is lost in confusion. (Fukanzazengi)

Perhaps one might say that only the carp's own self-centered thoughts and judgments create a mental net and place it inside.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS "Tony - Will be sitting later _/|\_" - We do request you to sit before posting. Thank you.

[Jishin]

...I'd likely fire him!

Who is I? Who is Dogen? Same or different?

How does Zazen equate with Enlightenment?

Zazen and enlightenment. Same or different?

How is just sitting the same as the Buddhas Enlightenment?

Just sitting and Buddhas Enlightenment. Same or different?

He taught the end of suffering, how is Zazen just this?

End of suffering, Zazen and just this. Same or different?

If you say same, you are attached to emptiness.

If you say different, you are attached to form.

What can you do?

It's a beautiful day outside. I think I will have some tea, go for a walk and make a donation to my favorite charity. Don't you want to join me Tony?

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jundo]

Who is I? Who is Dogen? Same or different?



Zazen and enlightenment. Same or different?



Just sitting and Buddhas Enlightenment. Same or different?

These phrases can be easy for all of us to say and philosophize about. However, truly knowing so in the bones and getting on with life, that's not so easy.

It's a beautiful day beyond measure.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[dharmasponge]

Who is I? Who is Dogen? Same or different?

Zazen and enlightenment. Same or different?

Just sitting and Buddhas Enlightenment. Same or different?

End of suffering, Zazen and just this. Same or different?

If you say same, you are attached to .......

Seung Sahn Sunim.... Different.

I hit you 30 times before and after your walk!

Whatever..........

[dharmasponge]

Are you referring to this Koan from the Blue Cliff Record?

Maybe I should wait for you to slip out the net before addressing the rest?

Very simple really. One just sitting whole without lack or need for further ado, such is the Way of Zazen. As nothing lacks, where is there room for Dukkha?

However, when the little self itself feels and itself judges "something lacks, I need something more" and goes hunting for it, well, as Dogen said,

Perhaps one might say that only the carp's own self-centered thoughts and judgments create a mental net and place it inside.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS "Tony - Will be sitting later _/|\_" - We do request you to sit before posting. Thank you.

Thanks Jundo,

Noted re Sat Today _/|\_

The carp metaphor was something either you said or I read - can't recall. It was alluding to your hands being in a cool pool of water trying to attract a golden carp. If you beckon it, it will scare it and never come to you. If you remain still, if you're lucky (Karma?) it may just swim to you.

I guess I am asking does Shikantaza ever bring about the Kensho experiences that I read about in The Korean and Rinzai traditions? I appreciate this isn't something we should anticipate though.

Sat Today

Tony...

[Jishin]

I hit you 30 times before and after your walk!

You are attached to words.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ongen]

Hi Tony,

I guess I am asking does Shikantaza ever bring about the Kensho experiences that I read about in The Korean and Rinzai traditions? I appreciate this isn't something we should anticipate though.

In my experience - no. Shikantaza doesn't and shouldn't bring anything about.

But then, if one would want to talk about such an overrated thing(?) as kensho, it is usually brought about by birds flying by, a bell in the distance, a cheap wooden bucket that has seen the last of it's days and more the like.

Kensho is nice. Just like a bite of good chocolate or a cool beer on a hot day. Too much chocolate one gets fat. Too much beer one gets drunk.
Have a sip, forget it, sit some more


Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Jundo]

First off, guys, please cut out the Zenny sounding banter. Stink of Zen and all that. I talk in weird ways sometimes because there are aspects of Zen Practice that push normal syntax and sentence structure to the extreme. But don't try to sound like old Chinese people.

Reminds me of the opening scenes of this Stuart Davis episode (Rating: For Mature Audiences) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juElohSYUiM

I guess I am asking does Shikantaza ever bring about the Kensho experiences that I read about in The Korean and Rinzai traditions? I appreciate this isn't something we should anticipate though.

Yes. In Zazen, the borders of self and other soften and, sometimes, may fully drop away leaving a Great Interflowing, bodymind fully dropped away. Wisely (IMHO) such is not the be-all-end-all of what we are about here. Just read something about this by Buddhist historian Robert Sharf ...

... In fact, one searches in vain for a premodern Chinese or Japanese equivalent to the phenomenological notion of "experience." Nor is it legitimate to interpret such technical Zen terms as satori (to understand) or kensho (to
see one's original nature) as denoting some species of unmediated experience in the sense of Nishida's junsui keiken [pure experience]. In traditional Chinese Buddhist literature such terms are used to denote the full comprehension
and appreciation of central Buddhist tenets such as shunyata [Emptiness], Buddha-nature, or dependent origination. There are simply no a priori grounds to conceive of such moments of insight in phenomenological terms. Indeed, Chinese Buddhist commentators in general, and Ch'an exegetes in particular, tend to be antipathetic to any form of phenomenological reduction.

It would appear that Nishida's interest in experience-unmediated or otherwise-is better traced to contemporary Western philosophical sources, particularly to the writings of the American philosopher William James, whose works were introduced to Nishida by D. T. Suzuki.

http://r210mhcc.yolasite.com/resources/Sharf1993,%20Zen%20Nationalism.pdf

Sharf goes on to speak of the overemphasis on these Kendo experiences in the West because of the influence of Sanbo-Kyodan Teachers ...

Anyway, this emphasis on a single determinative experience has been very influential in Buddhism’s development in the West. For example, the Japanese Zen master Hakuun Yasutani [1885–1973] was a teacher to some of the most significant teachers in the West, including Philip Kapleau Roshi, Taizan Maezumi Roshi, Robert Aitken Roshi, and Eido Shimano Roshi. Yasutani was famous for his overriding emphasis on kensho, which means much the same thing as satori. In Japan he was a
marginal figure, pretty much ignored by Soto and Rinzai masters. But in the West, largely because of the work of his disciples, his approach to Zen and his emphasis on kensho became pivotal.
http://buddhiststudies.berkeley.edu/...0Interview.pdf

The Soto approach to "Kensho" may be said to be unlimited, not bound by any one experience. I describe that here old post (pardon the length but this is important to understand) ...

Gassho, Jundo


=====================

Dogen tended to speak of "Enlightenment" ... not as some momentary experience to attain ... but as "Practice-Enlightenment", emphasizing that how we make Buddha Wisdom and Compassion manifest in our actual words, thoughts and deeds in this life is the real "Kensho".

These momentary Kensho [or other] experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. This can be much more profound and enveloping than a sensation of "I" feeling oneness or awe. HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination .

The following is important, so BOLDFACE and UNDERLINE ...

Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. The "Grand Canyon" or "Top of Mt. Everest" is a wonderful place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there. Scratching one's nose, taking out the trash, feeding the baby ... when we come to perceive this world as such ... is all as much the "Buddhaland" as anything with rainbow colored trees and cotton candy castles in the sky. In fact, the canyon vistas and the mountain top are ever before your eyes even now ... in the trash, your nose, in the hungry baby [(even in Mara!)]... although maybe hard to see. The most "boring and ordinary, beautiful or ugly" of this world is Extraordinary and Beautiful when properly understood.

In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm.

Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a sovenier, then wonder "is that all it is"?

I once wrote this on such Kensho (Seeing One's Nature) experiences ...

For Kensho is, in fact, special as special ever has been or could be … a sacred jewel, key to the path, life’s vitality realized … nothing other than special!

Yet Kensho is “nothing special” in that each and all facets of this life-world-self, bar none, are vital, sacred, a unique treasure – and every step of the path is central to the path. The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

That is why many Soto folks, like Sawaki Roshi above, think "Kensho Schmensho" ... running after some timelessly momentary fireworky experience of "Kensho" is not True "Grocking the Nature" Buddha-Bus Kensho. He says ...

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ongen]

Hi Jundo,

I think the following is mainly a meaning-of-the-word question:

I always made a distinction between the word Kensho (that sudden onness-and-understanding-feeling that can come up 'unexpectedly' any time) and Samadhi (that tranquill, complete stillness of the mind and oneness in zazen). Is this distinction in meaning correct?

Gassho

Ongen
Sat Today

[Kaishin]

Thank you, Jundo. Always a good reminder.

-satToday

[Jundo]

Words are just words.

However, "Kensho" simply means to "see one's nature". It has become associated with those "opening" experiences, as Prof. Sharf discusses above. But is really any piercing of the self-other divide.

Where the Soto and some Rinzai folks may disagree a bit is whether the "momentary timeless Kensho experience" (though nifty) is really that important and necessary, because (say the Soto folk) it is quite possible to have "Kensho" (grocking-piercing the subject-object divide) that powerfully, deeply, profoundly and thoroughly goes right to the marrow subtly and with less momentary notice. That is also "Kensho". It is sometimes compared to walking through a mist of dew which, in the end, will saturate one's sleeves as much as dipping them directly in a river. What is more, either way, the really vital part remains whether it is brought into the rest of your life or not. One can easily have some "timeless moment of deep and earthshaking Kensho" (or 100's of em) and still be a fool and failure at how one brings Wisdom and Compassion into the rest of life.

Samadhi, in traditional Buddhist vocabulary, is a state of deep mental concentration, usually during meditation. However, our Dogen also had a bit of a twist on this meaning which he called "Zazen Samadhi". Taigen Dan Leighton gives a taste ..,

This just sitting is not a meditation technique or practice, or any thing at all. ... Dogen describes this meditation as the samadhi of self-fulfillment (or enjoyment), and elaborates the inner meaning of this practice. Simply just sitting is expressed as concentration on the self in its most delightful wholeness, in total inclusive interconnection with all of phenomena. Dogen makes remarkably radical claims for this simple experience. "When one displays the buddha mudra with one's whole body and mind, sitting upright in this samadhi for even a short time, everything in the entire dharma world becomes buddha mudra, and all space in the universe completely becomes enlightenment."[13] Proclaiming that when one just sits all of space itself becomes enlightenment is an inconceivable statement, deeply challenging our usual sense of the nature of reality, whether we take Dogen's words literally or metaphorically. Dogen places this activity of just sitting far beyond our usual sense of personal self or agency. He goes on to say that, "Even if only one person sits for a short time, because this zazen is one with all existence and completely permeates all times, it performs everlasting buddha guidance" throughout space and time.[14] At least in Dogen's faith in the spiritual or "theological" implications of the activity of just sitting, this is clearly a dynamically liberating practice, not mere blissful serenity.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/art-just-sitting/introduction

This is not really a matter of "mental concentration" and is even wider than the states of concentration often thought of as "Samadhi", because it holds all the world and everything else, wholly and omitting nothing. I do not see anywhere in Dogen's writings an emphasis on attaining deep Samadhi states, and Dogen is more about "sitting with all phenomena in the universe as sacred, whole, and each the universe's 'total exertion' of Buddha in each grain of sand.

Anyway .. just folks trying to use words to describe something hard to describe.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[alan.r]

I'm reading The Wholehearted Way right now, and a passage in that books speaks to this (though not directly to kensho) and may be helpful:

"Having no thoughts is not necessarily good zazen. Thoughts are important as secretions from our brain. Secretion oozes out of life. Secretion is different from excretion of waste matter. In the same way that saliva in the mouth or gastric juice in the stomach is secreted, thoughts oozing out of our brain are an important function of life. But too much secretion of gastric juices causes an ulcer, or even cancer. Excessive secretion of thought is also dangerous for our life. Saliva, gastric juice, and thoughts should ooze in an appropriate amount for a natural condition. That is the most healthy condition for life."

The same can be said for kensho. Like thoughts, it is a thing that has probably occurred to most of us in some way, though maybe we didn't know the word for it or know how to define it. Awe at the foot of some great mountain; an inexplicable stillness in the midst of a busy day where we want to bow to everyone around us; the sudden strangeness of sitting with a friend or a partner and talking with them, how really and truly weird that is, how strange we all are, how rare, and that feeling of gratefulness - those are, to this person who could be very wrong, those are kensho. The striking reality of life that we either have been avoiding or failing to see clearly. These experiences are great, but if I want to see the entire universe in the plate I have to wash every time I have to wash a plate, I'm going to be seriously frustrated. Trying to get rid of all thoughts while in zazen is attachment to emptiness, and it's just going to leave me frustrated. Wondering if zazen brings about kensho? Why even wonder? It's like wondering if I'll ever get to a perfect place where there are no thoughts. Instead, just as in zazen, thoughts come and go. Kensho comes and goes. Thoughts, kensho, shikantaza, like Shunryu Suzuki might say, nothing special, and in that, something special.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

[dharmasponge]

Lots to read here, for when I get home from work. Thanks everyone.

Thanks Jundo re the 'Zen speak'. I hope it was clear I was being a tad facetious [emoji51] that type of talk may work for some, like Seung Sahns students but I'm afraid it goes right past me and means nothing.

So plain speak please unless it's coming from someone who we know, knows his shit! [emoji120]🏼[emoji120]🏼[emoji120]🏼


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