Faith ?

[Troy]

When I first took refuge and felt the Buddha way was my home stream, the word that really evoked faith was Tathagata. As far as I know that is the only term the Buddha used to refer to himself. There was a deep personal and emotional resonance with the name Tathagata.

In an act of faith I wrote the following on a piece of paper , sealed it with wax, and have kept in a special place for 25 years.



Now in a way this is mere poetry and mindplay, devotional fantasy, at set-up, make-believe. It is not true like a dollar bill or a punch in the face. But in another way it is truth impossible to know if the heart is covered with armor and vain intelligence. We know despite such vanity that the highest value of the heart, or heart of hearts, is unconditional compassion by any name. That is the realm of "faith", and it is only open to a naked and broken heart. It has nothing to do with belief in a separate entity other than this own mind and heart. It is an opening of the heart to the heart, a bowing down and an aspiring, at the same time. Such "faith" in an essential part of Bodhisattva Zen... faithless zen is just technology.

Just one view here, not speaking for anyone else.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

I love that. Thank you


..sat2day•
合掌

[Jundo]

I am going to stubbornly stick with this a little more. I would not discount too quickly the important of "faith" in Zen Practice and Mahayana Buddhism, although it is not some "blind faith".

"Great Faith" is, in fact, often called one of the essentials to our Practice.

I looked for a writing to convey this, and found so many. Teacher Augusto Alcalde speaks of a need for "faith meaning some kind of inner certainty that we are already the Buddha-dharma, that this body is the very body and that we can free the many beings." I believe that this is the same faith in the wholeness of Shikantaza of which I spoke, that when we sit this very sitting body is Buddha sitting.

We must have faith (until we personally experience so) that what we are being taught has truth to it, even though not so apparent to the eye and our "common sense" assumptions. Dogen Zenji stated in Bendowa ...

The world of the Buddhas is unthinkable and beyond consciousness, let alone to be known by contention and inferior knowledge. One must have true confidence and capacity to enter into it. Those without faith, even if taught, have trouble grasping it. For example, even when the Buddha was preaching at Vulture Peak, he said, "It is well for them to leave." To bring forth true faith in your heart you must practise and study. If not, you should quit for a while, regretting that you lack the influence of the Dharma from old good roots.
...
But to enter and actualize the Buddha Dharma, we cannot rely on the worldly knowledge of humans and shining beings as a vessel to move past the worldly. ... But through great faith they found the way to free themselves from delusion. Another case is the woman of great faith who saw a senile old monk silently sitting and offered him a meal and so uncovered realization. This did not depend upon
knowledge or on scholarship, words or speech. She was aided just through right faith. ... All who practise with right faith will all equally attain the Way with no gap between the wise and foolish.

http://www.wwzc.org/sites/default/files/Bendowa-book.pdf

There are so many powerful teachings in Buddhism which defy and challenge our ignorant "common sense", and we must trust in their truth until we experience them for our own. For example, I was not kidding that this world that exists before our eyes is largely (perhaps not wholly) a fiction. Things that seem solid and dependable are anything but (modern physics has come to much the same conclusions thru its own methods about seemingly separate, solid objects). The world ... with its objects that we categorize, label, isolate, judge, see as having certain characteristics ... is much more subjectively mind created than we recognize (much like the shapes of animals one might see in the clouds, so with many of the things we take for granted in this world. They are but conventions created by the human mind).

I do not mean that one must have faith in ridiculous fantasies. All the faith in the world will not make a dragon appear sitting at the kitchen table. On the other hand, faith may be necessary when I tell you that the "kitchen table" is not there as much as you think it is either, and in some respects, is as much a dream as fantasy dragons!

In this Practice, one must come to doubt and have faith at once.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[alkds1989]

That really resonated with me.

Gassho, Josh

Sat today.

[Byokan]

...But if we were to agree there needs to be trust in Zazen, in sitting, in putting in the work, what is it in which we put our trust??

Hi Stev,

I love your question. When I have a question with no clear answer I go back to the Four Noble Truths, and the 8fold Path, and in walking through them, usually find a place that can give me a little insight.

So, with the questions “is faith necessary” and if so, "what is it in which we put our trust" in mind:

First, there is suffering. I don’t need faith to see that, it’s all around. Second, suffering is caused by desire, craving, attachment. Sure, one need only look a little beyond the surface of things to see that this is true, pretty quickly. Third, there is a way to end suffering. Ah! Hold on. Is there? I’ve never known a person who didn’t suffer. How do I know this is true; why should I believe it? The fourth Truth says the 8fold path will end this suffering, but I can’t easily, quickly or intuitively know that that will be true... To find out if it’s true, I have to walk that path and test it out for myself, in my own life, with my own skepticism and doubt. So that Third truth, that’s where a bit of trust and faith are called-for.

I do have trust/faith that an end to suffering is possible. This faith had me searching for a long time. Now the search has brought me to Buddhism. Ok, I see some happy peaceful people here, and there’s a long history behind it, and the writing makes sense to me. I’ll try it out. I start sitting, studying, I start walking the eightfold path, I start applying the precepts, to see for myself if they really can lessen suffering. Maybe it works (spoiler: it does!), maybe not, maybe there is some other, better way to end suffering, but it is my faith that an end to suffering is possible, that keeps me searching and trying things out.

Stev, in your writing I think I see a little faith. You seem to have faith in “reality,” that there is an ultimate reality to be discovered, behind the wall of illusion or imagination.

I think we should not take things on blind faith. We should explore and question and try things out and test them and find the truth as best we are able. It is the idea that we CAN find the truth, the reality, the cure for suffering, the belief that these things exist, that requires a little faith and trust, until we have an actual experience of it for ourselves.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jeremy]

... I thought you were having a joke about Father Christmas but I see you are quite serious so not much left to say I will leave you to your imagination.
Byeee

Hi Stev,

Not sure if you've really gone or you're still there! Thanks for persisting in this thread - it's much appreciated

Nelson Goodman has some interesting things to say about fact and fiction, for example here https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

Paraphrasing Goodman, who's contrasting descriptions of you or me, for example, with those of characters like Don Quixote, or Father Christmas:

Some depictions and descriptions ... do not literally denote anything. Painted or written portrayals of Father Christmas (or Don Quixote), for example, do not denote Father Christmas — who is simply not there to be denoted.

...To which some around here might respond "But you or I are not there to be denoted, either".

Gassho,
Jeremy
SatToday

[Ankai]

Maybe, in our context, we could equate "faith" with the context in which we use the word "refuge." I cannot literally seek shelter in the Buddha, the Dharma or the Sangha. They will neither keep me physically warm, offer protection, or keep the rain off my head. But looked at as matters of spirituality, or, if you prefer, the psyche, I say with absolute faith that I take refuge in the Buddha, I take refuge in the Dharma and I take refuge in the sangha.