Faith ?

[Kyonin]

Hi guys.

I am not a man of faith. Actually I'm pretty skeptic. That's why I sit, because I want to see and experience stuff by myself.

I practice and ordained because the dharma feels natural and I put it to the test in myself all the time.

But at the end I just sit and let thoughts drift away if only for a few minutes.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[RichardH]

When I first took refuge and felt the Buddha way was my home stream, the word that really evoked faith was Tathagata. As far as I know that is the only term the Buddha used to refer to himself. There was a deep personal and emotional resonance with the name Tathagata.

In an act of faith I wrote the following on a piece of paper , sealed it with wax, and have kept in a special place for 25 years.

Perfect Tathagata
Beautiful Tathagata
I open my heart to your blessing
I open my mind to your Dharma
I have deep faith in your way.

Now in a way this is mere poetry and mindplay, devotional fantasy, at set-up, make-believe. It is not true like a dollar bill or a punch in the face. But in another way it is truth impossible to know if the heart is covered with armor and vain intelligence. We know despite such vanity that the highest value of the heart, or heart of hearts, is unconditional compassion by any name. That is the realm of "faith", and it is only open to a naked and broken heart. It has nothing to do with belief in a separate entity other than this own mind and heart. It is an opening of the heart to the heart, a bowing down and an aspiring, at the same time. Such "faith" in an essential part of Bodhisattva Zen... faithless zen is just technology.

Just one view here, not speaking for anyone else.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Stev]

Kyonin

Who could ever want to slap you?

For 25 minutes twice a day I sit, that is about 50 minutes every day I can't do anything or anyone any wrong.

Can't be bad

Gassho

sat today

[Risho]

Sorry to chime in so late -- faith as trust and faith as faith.

Not much to add about the trust side of faith; I mean I feel it is more trust in practice, trust in the teachers, in the sangha, in yourself to keep going even when the cushion is the last place to be.

But if you think you live your life without any faith - then you are kidding yourself; there are simply too many things discovered that we have to have faith work, cars, electricity... I don't know how all of it works, but I have faith that it will work. Our progress as humans relies on the discoveries that those made before us are true, or as true as the person could determine at that time. For example, when learning trigonometry, we have faith that pi is what our teachers tell us.

Or let's say you are crossing a bridge, but you can't see the other side of it; you have faith that it's there, that you will not fall off -- and yes that has happened, here in florida in fact.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Troy]

I experience faith as a letting go of myself. A letting go of the idea that all I need or can depend on is me, me, me.


..sat2day•

[Stev]

OK I am kind of responding to Risho but also to all of you, though my bunch of questions have not all been asked or answered when Jundo said -

"It gets to a point were it is all words, semantic, horns on rabbits ... faith or no faith, trust or no trust. Not important then.

Just keep sitting-non-sitting, and such is enough. Please trust me in believing that!"

It was obvious that we could voice different opinions for months but we eventually would have to return Jundo's wisdom. That and different folks from different cultures who do not understand the differences it has already got to the point "where it is all words"
you say potato
I say potato

Gassho

sat twice today

[Risho]

Yeah I would have to agree with that -- after a while, it becomes an argument over abstractions and then it's helpful to no one

[Kaishin]

Hmmm faith in the possibility of death???
Trust me, you don't need faith, you will die sometime, it's reality.
Or not,
birth, life, death, suffering
real ?
or nothing more than change?

sat today

Yes, different definitions of faith. Don't you get it yet? You can ask many people. They think they will live forever. Is it an omelette if it's just the egg whites? Who cares, I just want the protein.

[Stev]

Faith is imagination it is not reality, let go of your faith and you might see something real instead of opinion.Faith is just another brick in the wall that hides reality.

Or keep your faith HO HO HO

Gassho


will sit in about 30 minutes

[Jundo]

Faith is imagination it is not reality, let go of your faith and you might see something real instead of opinion.Faith is just another brick in the wall that hides reality.

Saying so is a matter of faith on your part!

(I couldn't resist to say that)

Furthermore, I might point out that Buddhism is such a radical statement on the illusory nature of all we take as real, that saying one has uncovered "reality" may not apply. For example, Stev asserting that Stev has experienced some reality overlooks the fact that "Stev" is just himself a matter of faith and supposition, and something of a dream.

I am not Christian, but I cannot attend the funeral of my best college friend who died in the US this week. So, since his wife is very religious Christian, I said I would like to find a Christian Church here in Japan and go in to say a prayer for my friend and the family. She wrote back, reminding me that I was a Buddhist of Jewish heritage, and had always professed to be very agnostic about such things. I responded that she was right but I would put that all aside, and for my time in the church, say the prayer having total faith in Jesus in honor of my friend and his beliefs. I asked her if that was enough, and if it were okay then. She wrote back that it certainly would be.

So, true or not, my "faith" seems to help somebody a little, and be real in some way.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Stev]

"Saying so is a matter of faith on your part! "

surely that is just opinion?

Stev does not assert he experiences reality he questions the reality of faith,

"If I had faith I would just be creating more 'me' to have to let go, surely?"


Just replace the word faith with the word imagination and see if it changes the meaning of anything said in this thread.


gassho

sat today

[Jundo]

In this conversation, we are a bit like a bunch of characters in a fictional novel becoming sentient and (not realizing that they are fictional characters in a fictional novel) debating who is experiencing the "reality" of the fictional chairs and tables and "faith" in the fictional "gods" and such in the the fictional world more clearly!

Is it the characters who live the fiction with "faith," or the characters who do not?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jeremy]

Just a couple of comments on opinions and personal experience...

I try to keep an eye out for opinion dressed up as fact, and I also look out for over-generalisations based on individuals' experiences.
"All of us do both of these a lot"


Gassho,
Jeremy
Sat Today

[Stev]

But we are not fictional character, we are human beings with all our thoughts and questions and Father Christmas does not exist.
Laws of physics govern electricity and we need no faith to walk on floors, neither do I need faith to start a car I use a key

If we have faith why would we need to prove anything for ourselves,
we can just live in our fictional imaginary dreamworld.

You may live in a fictional novel Jundo, have fun.
I thought you were having a joke about Father Christmas but I see you are quite serious so not much left to say I will leave you to your imagination.
Byeee

[Stacy]

If we have faith why would we need to prove anything for ourselves,
we can just live in our fictional imaginary dreamworld.

Heya Stev,

Because the thing with trust is, I think, that it is always put to the test. In that, trust is often based upon something. There is a difference between blindly trusting (which faith is not necessarily, as trust is not necessarily) and then trusting based on evidence or something else.

Maybe you separate what you "know" or basing things on what you know as not being the same as what you "trust". I see it kind of different.

At the end of the day, it's all just opinions and perspectives, and maybe adding in some analogies to help get each one's own ideas across. Not something worth getting too caught up in, for sure.

But if a belief in not having any trust (but not distrust) in zazen hasn't hindered your practice...is there a reason to worry about it? Maybe it's all trust, but we have different perspectives on what is trust. Maybe there's no trust, but we have different perspectives on what is trust. See what it means to the people talking about having faith in their situation, and then find your own understanding from there.

If you disagree with what something you read in your practice that says you need faith or trust, I think you should try to put it into your own meaning that makes sense to you and not worry about it too much.


Gassho,
Stacy

#SatToday


edit: Decided to shorten it up. I think it's nicer this way.