Faith ?

[Stev]

Faith ?

I keep reading the word 'faith' here, why?
I have no faith or belief, that is why I sit.
It is my time where I can be me at the same moment letting go of the 'my' the 'time' and the 'me'.
If I had faith I would just be creating more 'me' to have to let go, surely?

I have no faith Buddha (Siddhartha) ever existed, but that does not stop me recognising the wisdom in the teachings.
I have no faith in teachers but that does not prevent me from treating their knowledge with respect and learning from their knowledge and wisdom.
Just to qualify the last statement, in my practice of Zen no answer was ever of any value to me unless I had asked (myself)
the question it answered.

So do I need faith ? Will I need faith to accept your answer?


Sat today

[Joyo]

These are just some thoughts that came to me while reading your post...I'm not an unsui, or any kind of Buddhist teacher so please read with a grain of salt.


Do you have faith in yourself? You have faith in this practice, in zazen don't you? If you didn't, you probably wouldn't sit.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Stacy]

Hiya Stev,

This is a nice thread on the subject from not too long ago: http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...Faith-in-Zazen

I think it depends on where you see yourself putting your trust (faith is not necessarily the same as blind faith, it being a synonym for trust). I really liked Jundo's example on how, with a teacher, that we should take their words like we do a doctor's advice with our health. We trust a doctor to know what they're doing--being certified and all, with maybe multiple years of experience--but we should have some amount of doubt. Nobody's perfect, and scammers and quacks do exist. Too trusting, too doubtful, either can leave you in a not-so-good situation.

(Granted, it might take some time to find a particular teacher or teachers who you feel are worth trusting, given that teachings vary from sector to sector far more than something more standardized like a medical doctor.)

In that, I think I would modify what I said in that thread with faith in zazen itself. Perhaps I tried it without a level of trust in it, but if I continue to do it because I have found it to be helpful, then perhaps there is some level of believing that it will continue to do so. A trust, at least at some extent.


Gassho,
Stacy

#SatToday

[Jundo]

Thank you for linking to that post, Stacy ...

We do not need faith, just to be here. Yet, one may also say we need faith (or "trust" if that is a better word).

There are two aspects of "faith" (perhaps "trust" is a less loaded word for many Western people) vital to Shikantaza.

First is the kind alluded to by several folks above: The "trust" one must have in the doctor and his prescription at the outset of therapy ... The student should have trust in the teacher and teachings, at least for the months or longer until the teachings begin to prove themselves.

But there is another "trust in Shikantaza" that is ABSOLUTELY VITAL! I describe such as follows: Strange as it may sound at first blush, if one sits with a radical trust that the mere act of sitting Zazen is a complete action ... it is! But on the contrary, if one sits with the feeling "something is missing" ... then it is! So, a thorough trust in the former is vital!

More here, please have a look:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13361-Faith-in-Zazen

I also agree with the following. I am a pragmatist. I have no need for "faith" in some person, nor care if it is historically true or not, but if it manifests in life here and now that is enough.

I have no faith Buddha (Siddhartha) ever existed, but that does not stop me recognising the wisdom in the teachings.
I have no faith in teachers but that does not prevent me from treating their knowledge with respect and learning from their knowledge and wisdom.
Just to qualify the last statement, in my practice of Zen no answer was ever of any value to me unless I had asked (myself)
the question it answered.

As well, our "Grass Hut" reading this week is right on this point, and I recommend it. I will link here shortly.

Gassho, J

[Stev]

Hi, so no I have absolutely no faith in Zazen, and I sit twice a day.
Even if we use the word 'trust' I would say no I have no trust in Zazen.
But if you were to ask me if it would be wise to continue sitting, then i would say yes because I know it would be, I have no reason to question that.
But if we were to agree there needs to be trust in Zazen, in sitting, in putting in the work, what is it in which we put our trust??



thanks for the replies

[Jundo]

Hi, so no I have absolutely no faith in Zazen, and I sit twice a day.
Even if we use the word 'trust' I would say no I have no trust in Zazen.
But if you were to ask me if it would be wise to continue sitting, then i would say yes because I know it would be, I have no reason to question that.
But if we were to agree there needs to be trust in Zazen, in sitting, in putting in the work, what is it in which we put our trust??



thanks for the replies

Hi Stev,

It gets to a point were it is all words, semantic, horns on rabbits ... faith or no faith, trust or no trust. Not important then.

Just keep sitting-non-sitting, and such is enough. Please trust me in believing that!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

The book club reading this week on faith/trust is posted ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13537-Grass-Hut-15-Trust-Faith-and-Ease&p=155521#post155521

The accompanying reading should be here for those who do not have the book.

https://books.google.com/books?id=c5BFAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT56&lpg=PT56&dq=%22A+Great+Vehicle+Bodhisattva+trusts+without+doubt%22&source=bl&ots=_GPrjVYtPu&sig=Kiv2H44n3Ih97DCRMGKQg40xj-c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMIxZm06saPxgIVQRqMCh3WPwC8#v=onepage&q=%22A%20Great%20Vehicle%20Bodhisattva%20trusts%20without%20doubt%22&f=false

Gassho, j

[Jishin]

Faith ?

I keep reading the word 'faith' here, why?
I have no faith or belief, that is why I sit.
It is my time where I can be me at the same moment letting go of the 'my' the 'time' and the 'me'.
If I had faith I would just be creating more 'me' to have to let go, surely?

I have no faith Buddha (Siddhartha) ever existed, but that does not stop me recognising the wisdom in the teachings.
I have no faith in teachers but that does not prevent me from treating their knowledge with respect and learning from their knowledge and wisdom.
Just to qualify the last statement, in my practice of Zen no answer was ever of any value to me unless I had asked (myself)
the question it answered.

So do I need faith ? Will I need faith to accept your answer?


Sat today

Hi,

I think you have a lot faith. So much so that you have faith in not having faith. But that's just my opinion.

Gassho, Jishin

[Stacy]

Does it really matter whether there is trust or no trust? Is it maybe more of a matter of not filling with distrust?

In my post in the other thread, I had said how I didn't think there was a level of trust in zazen itself, just that it was something I did and continued to do because it worked for me. But in thinking on things and looking back, I can't say that "I know" isn't at least to some extent "I trust". If I walk confidently across the floor, do I trust the floor? I can say I know it won't fall in, but if something beyond my knowledge happened that caused it to falter when I step across it...my "knowing" was more of a trust. (Maybe even trusted that I knew?) But circumstance doesn't seem like it's a factor in what was there all along, regardless of if the floor caved in or not.

Definitely fun to think about. Here I am with a different perspective today than just couple months back, haha. Right, wrong, whatever. Oh well.

But if a belief in not having any trust (but not distrust) in zazen hasn't hindered your practice...is there a reason to worry about it? Maybe it's all trust, but we have different perspectives on what is trust. Maybe there's no trust, but we have different perspectives on what is trust. See what it means to the people talking about having faith in their situation, and then find your own understanding from there.


Gassho,
Stacy

#SatToday

[Mp]

Hello Stev,

I have faith in trust, trust in faith, and both faith and trust in just sitting. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday #intrust #infaith

[Stev]

So years ago my daughter sat down next to me, looked me in the eye and said.
"Dad, now tell me the truth, does Father Christmas really bring my presents?"

Thanks for the replies

sat today

[Jundo]

So years ago my daughter sat down next to me, looked me in the eye and said.
"Dad, now tell me the truth, does Father Christmas really bring my presents?"

Thanks for the replies

sat today

I say yes!

Here is how I believe in Santa (and all the Bodhisattvas) ...

Actually, I had a hard time, for many years, incorporating into my practice many figures such as Kannon and Jizo ...

I have some cautions I would offer both to people who say (a) these things do exist in a concrete way, and those folks who say (b) they do not. While both those extremes may be correct (only the universe knows for sure, and I remain an open minded mystic-skeptic), I have come to see "them" as archtypes, representing real characteristics of human life and (since we are just the universe) thus the universe.

In other words, in a nutshell: When we feel in our hearts and act upon love and compassion, thereby love and compassion exists as a real, concrete aspect of the world which our hearts and acts create. And since, in our view, there is no "inside" or "outside" ultimately, what is inside you is just as much "the universe" and concrete reality as the moon, gravity and the stars. That is "Kannon", in that way a real and concrete aspect and 'force' of the world.

I believe in Buddhist Heavens and Hells, Buddhas (apart from the historical Shakyamuni) and Boddhisattvas, and all the rest of the Buddhist cosmology, in much the spirit of that famous essay ... "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus". Did you ever read that? A little girl wrote to a newspaper editor, back in 1897, saying that she'd heard from friends that there is no Santa Claus. "Is it true?", she asked. Part of the response ran like this ...

What? You don't believe in Santa Claus?

GassHo Ho Ho, Jundo

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

http://www.newseum.org/exhibits/online/yes-virginia/

Gassho, J

SatToday Ho Ho Ho

[Stev]

I'm off to open up my zazen chimney!!

[Kaishin]

I have faith
that I may die
before the sun rises
Time to sit now

-satToday

[Stev]

Hmmm faith in the possibility of death???
Trust me, you don't need faith, you will die sometime, it's reality.
Or not,
birth, life, death, suffering
real ?
or nothing more than change?

sat today