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An interview (thanks Aske for posting!) at Tricycle with the great Shohaku Okumura Roshi (student of Kodo Uchiyama and 'Homeless' Kodo Sawaki Roshis at Antaiji) touches upon this. Folks who have been around the Shikantaza block have heard this kind of thing before many times, but always good to hear again.
Okumura speaks about Sawaki's famous saying that Zazen is "good for nothing".
Okumura recounts how, years ago, he worked as a farm hand picking berries. There were delicious, valuable blueberries, but also worthless, inedible "dogberries" that had to be separated out so that they would not get mixed in. It strikes me that this is much as we sit during Zazen, letting the "dogberry" thoughts and emotions go without plucking. However, what finally struck Okumura is that, even though we do not love them, and consider them like weeds to human eyes, the dogberries are also "good" as worthless dogberries, and have their place in the sun as much as luscious blueberries! Blueberries just do their blueberry thing, dogberries are just dogberries. When human evaluations are dropped, all are beautiful! Each just nothing, each a treasure! When we pluck them, they do not go anywhere ... when we leave them, they do not remain.In the world, it’s always about winning or losing, plus or minus. Yet in Zazen, it’s about nothing. It’s good for nothing. That’s why it is the greatest and most all-inclusive thing there is.
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When somebody asks me what zazen is good for, I say that zazen isn’t good for anything at all. And then some say that in that case they’d rather stop doing zazen. But what’s running around satisfying your desires good for? What is gambling good for? And dancing? What is it good for to get worked up over winning or losing in baseball? It’s all good for absolutely nothing! That’s why nothing is as sensible as sitting silently in zazen. In the world, “good for nothing” just means that you can’t make money out of it.
Often people ask me how many years they have to practice zazen before it shows results. Zazen has no results. You won’t get anything at all out of zazen.
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What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re truly practicing what’s good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.
You say you want to become a better person by doing zazen. Zazen isn’t about learning how to be a person. Zazen is to stop being a person.
Zazen is unsatisfying. Unsatisfying for whom? For the ordinary person. People are never satisfied.
Nonetheless, do not pick the dogberries of life as best one can!
He can explain much better than me.
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[Q] You just mentioned “good-for-nothing zazen.” I assume that was a reference to one of Sawaki’s sayings: “Zazen is good for nothing.” I think I understand the meaning of that. Zazen has no ulterior purpose; it’s not a means to an end. Yet surely zazen is good for something—otherwise we wouldn’t do it and Sawaki Roshi wouldn’t have encouraged people to practice it.
The first time I heard this English expression, “good for nothing,” I was living in Massachusetts. One summer, to support our practice, we worked for a farmer harvesting blueberries. There were some high school students working there too, as a summer job during their vacation. There was a part of the field were another kind of berries were growing, called dogberries. The students were not very careful, so sometimes they mixed dogberries in with the blueberries. The farmer was always shouting: “Stop picking those good-for-nothing dogberries!” I really liked this expression, “good for nothing,” and I thought, “What’s the difference between those good-for-nothing berries and the blueberries?” Dogberries are not edible, but they are pretty. Blueberries are pretty, too, but they are also edible, so they have market value. That means they’re “good for something.” Dogberries have no market value so we consider them “good for nothing.” But when we put aside our human evaluation, then blueberry and dogberry are the same. They are both pretty and just live to continue their lives. So I thought, dogberries are good but for nothing. That’s why I translated Sawaki Roshi’s expression that way: “Zazen is good for nothing.” To me, this means zazen is good—but not for something. It is good in itself. I think this is very important. It is the same as what Bodhi-dharma said when the Emperor Wu told him he [the emperor] had helped Buddhism by creating hundreds of temples and monasteries and asked what karmic rewards he could expect. Bodhidharma said, “No merit at all.”
Soto Zen is sometimes talked about as Zen without satori [sudden realization or enlightenment]. Is this correct? How does the distinction between gradual and sudden enlightenment apply to Dogen’s Zen?
This depends on the definition of satori. Dogen Zenji often said, “Practice and enlightenment, or satori, are one.” That means our practice of zazen is itself enlightenment. In that sense, this is very sudden. When we sit, enlightenment is there. But we still need to continue this practice endlessly, so that within the process of practice, we become a deeply matured person, and that is very gradual. So in our practice, both gradual and sudden enlightenment are there.
... And when Dogen then said, “Shu and sho, or practice and verification, are one,” that means, within our practice, this verification is already there. But that means our practice is itself the verification of the truth of the teaching. And that teaching means that we are living together with all beings, interconnected with all beings, and when we sit we really become part of this network of interdependent origination. That’s why Dogen said this practice is itself verification, and in this case, verification is what satori means: we really see that we are connected with all beings. This awakening that we are together with all beings is satori, in my understanding. And within our practice of zazen, this satori is already actualized.
This is very different from the commonly held idea of satori that D. T. Suzuki wrote about in his books: “the sudden flashing into consciousness of a new truth hitherto undreamed of.”
Yes, that is the Rinzai approach of koan practice, where satori is the goal of the practice, something we need to achieve. Dogen’s approach is a little—actually, not a little but very different. Dogen said, “We don’t practice to attain enlightenment, we practice being confirmed by enlightenment.”
That’s why it’s good for nothing.
Yes.
Last edited by Jundo; 01-29-2015, 03:36 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Hi Jundo,
Thank you. I think, that I fall in this trap all the time.Please, please avoid all functionality, use of Zazen as some tool, thoughts of benefit, payoff and results, some bad place to go from, a better place to get to. There is still so much of that unintentionally running through descriptions here, with advice like "If you do this, then the good thing will eventually happen." It is a trap. One must radically drop all hope or need of benefit, payoff and result. Don't look to get something, don't think of Zazen as a tool to get it. Be the Mirror of Equanimity.
Gassho, Ernst
sat todayComment
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NOTE FROM JUNDO: I SOMEHOW ERASED PART OF THIS POST BY ACCIDENT TRYING TO RESPOND! WELL, THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE! MY APOLOGIES!! TONY, PLEASE PUT BACK WHAT YOU SAID!!!
I guess I can see the radical(ness) of letting go of everything - in particular dropping the aspiration for a pay off. It's hard to see though how that can really ever be done without the quietest of whispers in the darkest corner of my mind saying "payday soon".
If that was completely absent I'd struggle to sit at all. There's a belief that's a part of my DNA now that says there is liberation from suffering and that is the payday available to us all through which ever conduit we choose....even the one that drops everything
The Method of no Method......is still a method - no?Last edited by Jundo; 01-29-2015, 04:23 PM.Sat today
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Hello,
Quit while you're behind.^^
Gassho,
Myosha sat today"Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"Comment
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Help me! Help me! I lost my method of no method! I can't see it, hear it, smell it, taste it or touch it. But I need eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue and a space suit first to help me find it! Wait. I need my mind first to put all of this together. Where is my mind? I lost it! Help me find my mind!
Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_Last edited by Jishin; 01-29-2015, 12:35 PM.Comment
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Why do we suffer? We suffer because we want things to be different to how things are. Wanting a payoff means we are looking to some future time when things are going to be better than they are now. How can we sit with what is here now with ease when we are looking to some future time?its not meant to be painful {surely}?
Charlotte Joko Beck makes an important point at the beginning of Everyday Zen about how students of Zen (and doubtless other forms of Buddhadharma) exchange ideas of how life will be better when they get a new car/job/partner/house/holiday for how life will be better when they become enlightened. Sure, it is probably a better goal but still a variant on the same theme of 'better when'.
We can choose to listen to the voice saying 'payoff soon' and sit and struggle or else let it go and just sit with what is, which is where the freedom is. Of course, doing that takes practice but that is what sitting is. The practice is in the letting go*
Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday
*this view comes from a novice on the path. Other (undoubtedly better) advice is also available.Comment
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Jundo, wonderful!I am a little concerned by this thread all day, and wanted to put my finger on what it is.
So, let me ask folks to truly examine one's sitting. Be careful and aware of what I am going to say, please!
Please, please avoid all functionality, use of Zazen as some tool, thoughts of benefit, payoff and results, some bad place to go from, a better place to get to. There is still so much of that unintentionally running through descriptions here, with advice like "If you do this, then the good thing will eventually happen." It is a trap. One must radically drop all hope or need of benefit, payoff and result. Don't look to get something, don't think of Zazen as a tool to get it. Be the Mirror of Equanimity.
Why?
Counter-intuitive as it may sound, the Real Benefit, Payoff and Results of Zazen can only come through radically abandoning the tail chasing and hunt for payoff and results. (Otherwise, you are like a person standing in Times Square who feels lost and unable to find New York City! The more she keeps hunting, the more she is blinded to where she stands. She needs to stop and just open her eyes.) Counter-intuitive as it may sound, giving up all chasing (provided it is sufficiently to the marrow) --does not-- result in resignation, stagnation, blindly accepting all faults, wallowing in one's present mess. Quite the contrary. (If you think I am advising folks to just continue in ongoing ignorance and confusion, wallowing in their mess, I am not at all.) Rather, the "giving up of chasing" results in finding that which can only be found by being very still. In abandoning all running after change ... radical changes occur! The way to find peace and satisfaction is NOT by feeling dissatisfied that one lacks satisfaction, determined to find satisfaction somewhere down the road. It makes no sense whatsoever to hunt for satisfaction by being dissatisfied by satisfaction's absence, never satisfied by the absence of satisfaction. Rather, the way to find peace and satisfaction is simply to be satisfied here and at peace with that fact.
If you do that, then the good thing will eventually happen. I promise. If you do that, Zazen is a most effective tool.
Next, also counter-intuitive, one must sit fully and energetically in the Wholeness and Completeness of what is, feeling that there is not one thing in need of change, adding or taking away ... but NONETHELESS letting thoughts go and not latching on, not getting caught in or wallowing in excess or negative emotions.
Why?
Only by doing so does one realize clearly that there is nothing in need of changing and never was! Only by fixing these things about us do we taste that there was never anything to fix!
Next, never forget to sit Zazen as Sacred Action, the one place to be, one action to do in all the universe in that moment! Folks do not emphasize this anywhere enough in their sitting (as if it would suddenly be too "religious" or something. But it is not just some silly ritual or matter of faith, not anything superstitious.) Truly, a minute of sitting is a minute of Buddha Sitting!
Why?
Simply because we human beings rarely perceive the little things we do each day as so whole, complete and sacred. We feel that things are okay at best, substandard at worst, and that something is always lacking or needs more to be added on. We do not know how to sit still, in the Total Fruition of Just This, Yippee!
Please sit in the Sacredness and Wholeness and Buddhaness of Just Sitting. If you fail to do so, then sitting while abandoning "all functionality, thoughts of benefit, payoff and results", will in fact result in mere resignation, stagnation and wallowing. One must sit in energetic "This is Buddha" to avoid that dead end.
Kinda get it? I know it is kinda crazy, and seems sometimes like it doesn't make sense. But this is Zen after all, which don't always make "sense." It is, in fact, very functional and goal oriented, but only when one stops thinking in such terms.
Gassho, J
SatToday
Ishin
Sat Today!Grateful for your practiceComment
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Ooh, stop
With your feet in the air and your head on the ground
Try this trick and spin it, yeah
Your head will collapse
But there's nothing in it
And you'll ask yourself
Where is my mind
Where is my mind
Where is my mind
Way out in the water
See it swimmin'
#satTodayThanks,
Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.Comment
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Tony,
what would "quitting" mean for you?Quitting with Zen and moving elsewhere?
Quitting all of that search, am I doing it right, quitting to sit?
"Giving up"?
I am a fool, but why not?
Give up the painful part.
And if you suddenly see that your personal Zazen is being thrown Legos at, it cannot be wrong.
Maybe then you want to formally sit again, or not.
Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday治 Ji
花 KaComment
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Interesting.
I think we suffer because we see ourselves and others as existing as truly existent. We don't see them as imputations of mind and like the piece of rope that we thought was a snake, we react accordingly.
I see Zazen as a conduit to actually experiencing the true nature of phenomena (including ourselves and others). I am uncomfortable knowing that this might all be an illusion that cold actually be seen for what it is. Remember Cipher in The Matrix who chose to 'go back in' wanting no memory of the reality of things? What a coward! Not for me
Quite how this happens might be what we're talking about now....letting go or not, having a subject or not etc...ultimately academic.
The issue arises when we realise we have a 'precious human life' and should take advantage of it. It would be foolhardy to get on any train in the hope that its going your way (destination and wanting to get somewhere not being a part of that particular metaphor I hasten to add!). We would surely be wise to check to see whether I am getting on a train thats actually not decommissioned and I am going to be stuck there for ever......Zen and Zazen might be complete and utter BS...I want to know what you know!
All I am doing with all of this seemingly never ending rumination is to try to untangle what is being said to me as its so utterly unclear to me. If I understood then I would not be irritating you all like this
What I experience as its paradoxical nature is seductive to me and is like itself a koan. Like '..just sit with no hope of gain.....and it will come good in the end...'. Can you see how that would be confusing to some? Contradictory almost.
You patient people deserve some tea and cake - an English cure all!
scrummy-cake-and-tea.jpgSat todayComment
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Oh, who said there is no payday? Not me! There is Liberation from suffering! Who said no? Find one's Original Face, Be One With The Universe, Transcend Life and Death ... the Whole Big Payoff! Yippee!I guess I can see the radical(ness) of letting go of everything - in particular dropping the aspiration for a pay off. It's hard to see though how that can really ever be done without the quietest of whispers in the darkest corner of my mind saying "payday soon".
If that was completely absent I'd struggle to sit at all. There's a belief that's a part of my DNA now that says there is liberation from suffering and that is the payday available to us all through which ever conduit we choose....even the one that drops everything If it weren't for that, why bother?
So, here is a little trick I would like you to consider:
Can you fully and completely drop away ... in one part of your psyche ... all need to get something, fill some hole, add something ...
... all the while ... in one another part of your psyche ... you may still harbor such goals lightly?
Much of Zen Buddhism ... and so many of the Koans ... are founded on encountering life simultaneously in two or more seemingly incongruous and contradictory ways, dropping all resistance between the seeming opposition.
That is why I often speak of our (on one channel) holding lightly our goals and dreams, all while (on another channel) simultaneously dropping all goals and need to attain. I speak of dropping all small human judgments of "right and wrong" all while holding judgements of right and wrong (like Okumura simultaneously seeing dogberries and blueberries as each precious with their place in the sun, yet keeping the latter while avoiding the former).
It is like encountering life one way out of the left eye, another way seen from the right eye ... and as both together combines, the Clarity of Buddha Eye.
Mumonkan 9
But if he did not, how was he Buddha?A monk asked Seijo, "[In the Lotus Sutra it says that] Daitsu Chisho Buddha did zazen (meditated) for ten kalpas in a Meditation Hall, could not realize the highest truth, and so could not become fully emancipated. Why was this?" Seijo said, "Your question is a very appropriate one!" The monk asked again, "Why did he not attain Buddhahood by doing zazen in the Meditation Hall?" Seijo replied, "Because he did not."
Understand?
Gassho, J
SatTodayLast edited by Jundo; 01-30-2015, 03:45 AM.ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLEComment
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Jundo,
Just started to read your reply and thought no....wait until I finish work and can assimilate it better....I got as far as the challenge....
ps. Didn't sit this morning as my son (15months) decided he would be Mr Nocturnal last night. My wife and I have been not entirely functional today....will try before bedtime though
Sat todayComment
its not meant to be painful {surely}?
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