Return to Sender....maybe! (Jundo: Maybe Not!)

[dharmasponge]

Hello everyone,

When sitting in Shikantaza and the mind 'wanders' what does it wander from?

I ask as I am often told that there is no specific focus in Shikantaza - if so were to we bring the mind back to and from where does is wander from when sitting?

If it is just the process of sitting then this is the focus like any other...Anapanasati for example - maybe?

Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

I would not say that the mind wanders from something but just wanders. Where is the fixed point in sitting? Or in life?

In shikantaza our attention may wander from birdsong to achy knees, the smell of incense and thoughts about what we are doing that evening.

Life and practice are one long wander through the woods of existence.

Of course, as people pointed out in the thoughts thread, we try not to feed thoughts or attach to them, but thoughts happen and that is fine. I guess the difference there is we let the wandering happen rather than forcing our own agenda on it. Or analysing whether we are getting it right!

Maybe don't think of it as returning but instead of emptying your bowl.

Caveat - this advice comes from an inexperienced student of the way who often has difficult remembering where he left his keys and should be taken as such.

Gassho
Kokuu
#satandwanderedtoday

[dharmasponge]

<gently pulls hair out>

[Kokuu]

Tony

If you find yourself thinking, stop feeding the thinking. That is it. All else can happen by itself.

There is no right or perfect state so I wouldn't keep looking for one.
Let go of the sides of the pool and float free. The water is nice and it is quite liberating!

Gassho
Kokuu

[Daitetsu]

Hi Tony,

One could argue about whether Shikantaza Zazen is meditation or not.
Normally, meditation has an object to focus on (e.g. the breath), but Shikantaza is lacking this.
In fact, I have read several times from people who say that zazen is not meditation.
(I don't care though, I just sit.)

Just allow your thoughts to drift by. Accept things as they are, as IT is. Let go of yourself. Don't cling/attach.
What remains is the entire universe, in fact all there is.

Just my two cents.


Gassho,

Daitetsu


#sat2day

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony,

....In fact, I have read several times from people who say that zazen is not meditation.


#sat2day

Ahhhhh....! Shikantaza is NOT meditation - now that would explain away a LOT of my confusion if thats the case!

Sat Today

[Daitetsu]

Hi Tony,

Ahhhhh....! Shikantaza is NOT meditation - now that would explain away a LOT of my confusion if thats the case!

Just to be sure: I don't say this is the case (I am no authority on these matters!), but I think one could argue about this point.
But then one just ends up in another (cumbersome) game of definitions, whereas zazen is beyond definitions.
Shikantaza is shikantaza - whether one calls it meditation, waste of time, lkwjflksjsldkjflsk is the same to me. It does not change a thing. The only thing you'd change is the label you put on it.
Drop the labels, just sit.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Jishin]

Hello everyone,

When sitting in Shikantaza and the mind 'wanders' what does it wander from?

I ask as I am often told that there is no specific focus in Shikantaza - if so were to we bring the mind back to and from where does is wander from when sitting?

If it is just the process of sitting then this is the focus like any other...Anapanasati for example - maybe?

Sat Today

No.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

Return to Sender....maybe!

Ahhhhh....! Shikantaza is NOT meditation - now that would explain away a LOT of my confusion if thats the case!

Sat Today

No.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jika]

Hi Tony,

this may be very stupid.
I had to do some tests a while ago, remember as many words as possible.
I noticed my mind linking this list of words by a story with scenes - and imagined movement.
I didn't do it on purpose, like stepping to the left or walking outside.

In zazen, I do the opposite, I step back.
As if stepping back behind my eyes, inside me, detached me from the thoughts and they are simply there or not, like birdsong is sometimes there or not.
By stepping back, I also step outside: because there is no focus inside, everything is the focus.

You know much more, but I hope some of my experience can be helpful.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[dharmasponge]

No.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

...this is not good for PR Jishin.

Trust me this is the very thing that puts people off even starting to become interested in Zen.

If you're enlightened then good for you. I and many other in here are not yet...consequently I neither have the time or inclincation to fathom the depths of your mind.

I appreciate the party line in terms of Zenny answers, but to some f us they're utterly without meaning metaphysical or otherwise.

It just looks silly to be honest.

Sorry, but I have a blunt sword and little time for stroking!

[Kyonin]

Hi Tony,

No metaphysical or religious explanations here. Just a raw and common sense oriented opinion.

I am not an expert but in my view and for what I have read, the mind evolved to think and wander. It is how we relate with the universe and how we process information. The mind produces thoughts all the time, non stop. It doesn't wanders from or escapes to nowhere. It just does its job keeping us processing information.

What we do in Shikantaza is to observe the thoughts pop up and do our best not to cling to them and not to add stuff to them. If we caught ourselves clinging, then we let go and return to the present moment. We let them be and go away.

I have found that with training the process becomes a little easier.

So no wandering. Just the mind doing what the mind does.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Anshu Bryson]

dharmasponge,

Like Daitetsu, I also don't know whether I have this stuff right yet ...

Where I "come back to", if I 'come back' at all (oftentimes, I will just 'stay' and let everything else 'go past', if that makes any sense...), is the 'now'.

All of the conversations going on in my head are generally either 1. dwelling on things in the past, or 2. worrying about things in the future. I want to sit in the space between those poles, if I can, as it is very seldom that we can dwell in the 'now' in our daily lives (there is far too much thinking to be done just in order to function!).

I know that might sound a bit vague, but this is all experiential and difficult to describe in menu form...

Finally, while this might not be my place, please let me remind you that this forum is not the place for 'blunt swords', but for "gentle speech"; you are much more likely to elicit a positive response through that method...

Gassho,

Bryson

sat today

[Jishin]

Return to Sender....maybe!

Hey Tony,

I am giving you the most compassionate answer that I can come up with to your questions. Since you are in the mental health business, I will put my answer to you in the mental health lingo:

The Ego of Tony does not want to sit. Period. Any answers that I give the Ego of Tony that are intellectual in nature will give the Ego of Tony a chance to sink its teeth on and continue intellectualizing as a defense mechanism to the dissolution of the Ego of Tony. If one of the goals of Buddhism is the dissolutions of the Ego, then the more the Ego of Tony continues to intellectualize, the further away the Ego of Tony gets from becoming one, whole, returning to the source, enlightened or whatever you want to call it.

So, the answer is No! It's hard for the Ego of Tony to sink teeth on this answer, No. This is a favorite answer in Zen and its a good one. Read the Heart Sutra and Koans to see this teaching all over the place.

No no no no no! This is my very compassionate answer to the Ego of Tony, believe or not.

So there. Sink your teeth on this answer and intellectualize some more since now you know why I say no. I am talking to you and not you.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ugrok]

Hi Tony !

Where is it, where am i, where does the mind come from, where does it go, what is it, what is it not, what is a thought, where does it come from, who am i...

I can do the next bunch of questions for you if you want ! There is a good post of Jundo about those questions, i think you can find it in "teacher's talk".

I think Jishin is right. Nobody can answer you seriously without putting fuel on the fire, because these questions have no purpose, no relevance (and no answer) other than trying to make your reality fit in premade categories, which is a defense mechanism because, well, categories feel secure. I know it because i experienced all the questions you ask here (as well as the hair pulling and head exploding - and anxiety, which i hope you don't feel too much), and, through sitting mainly (but not only !), those questions don't arise anymore.

I know it is said often in zen, not to intellectualize, and not to put things into concepts, etc (which is quite fun since there are like 258 tons of philosophy books written by zen masters). But if you are, like me, a "thinker", that likes to get to the end of things with reason and logic, then you might find out that a good way to get rid of this is to use it ! The questions you ask are adressed in Nagarjuna's philosophy, for example : the concept of "where", of "space", of "time", are logically investigated, through and through. The conclusion of the logical analysis is that it is not possible to give a stable, absolute, "REALER THAN REAL" logical account of any of those. If you go to the end of logical reasoning, it falls apart. You could listen to John Dunne's podcasts at Upaya Zen Center's website, entitled "Revealing Nagarjuna". It's fun, and it gets your logical mind cornered. This really helped me a lot coming to terms with those questions. This, and therapy, and sitting zazen, as well, because what helps really is to drop everything that you "know", even the fact that you know that you don't know. Sitting, and studying, will get you out of these questions. I would also add someone to talk to without him/her judging you or giving you advice is a blessing.

I know this is not well perceived in the zen community, where people always tell you to "stop thinking" and to stop rationalizing things, but for me, thinking precisely and logically about some of this stuff allowed me to let go of a lot of premade conceptions about reality when i saw that, even logically, a lot of stuff we "think" about does not make sense !

Gassho,

Ugrok,

Sat Today