Return to Sender....maybe! (Jundo: Maybe Not!)

[Ishin]

Speaking of tea as a newbie who has limited experience I would just like to make some observations about all this in the true spirit of helping- here's hoping something I have to say helps.. cheers

Tony, I have read and participated in several threads along this subject line now and I think it is fairly obvious that you are frustrated with your practice- especially shikantaza. Not only is this in terms of doing it "right", but there seems to be this underlying hint of "why am I doing this at all", "is this really for me", and "these people are going to have to show or proove something to me that this is all even true in the first place". I sincerely feel that some of the EGO DUELING ( yes I just made that up - Ishin tm) has to do with some kind of back-lashing that people who are actually trying to help you are also simultaneously feeling a need to defend themselves or their own practice.

I am no expert, I am struggling at times to understand all this an making an effort to try to comprehend the process and do it right as well. I think the trouble is that the experience here and the "payoff" is well, something hard to describe in words, Japanese or English. It truly is like a finger pointing at the moon. The method, theory and explanation all fall short of the experience. So, therefore there may some frustration in explaining to you exactly how to benefit. As you yourself say, you tend toward being analytical, fair enough. I would just humbly invite you to try/ not TRY to practice. I am sure we would all like to see you stay and come to some peace in your sitting, but I really feel the more you try to chase this practice in some kind of definitive box, the more elusive it becomes.

When you sit, JUST sit, let all that analysis go. Do your best with what you think you know at any given time, and most importantly just try to let things BE when you sit. Just let everything BE, and when thoughts come, acknowledge them, and be patient, calm and pay them no heed. Try to feel as complete as you can without trying to add anything to it, get anything from it, even understand it.

If you are not careful, you might even find the need to analyze everything is not as fun as you "thought".

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today

[dharmasponge]

Mumonkan 9



But if he did not, how was he Buddha?

Understand?

.... I'm stuck!

[Mp]

.... I'm stuck!

Now let go and sit! =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday

[Risho]

I really love these posts lately. This practice is on such a fine line of precision. I can't hear the teachings enough.

Nothing to attain is the attainment!

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

P.S. This reminds me of something Dosho Port mentions in Keep Me In Your Heart A While. We always ask what we are going to get from zazen but what are we going to give? I'm paraphrasing. lol

[Byokan]

Tony,

Your questions are like crack, I cannot stay away. (And therein lies part of the answer.) Anyway, apologies to all, in advance, for writing a wall of words that may not even make sense. Here goes nothin’ :

You seem to be trying so hard to find a safe place to put your foot forward, but from here it looks like you are already treading the path just fine.

You may notice that people are no longer addressing your specific questions, but rather your questioning state itself. This questioning and frustrated state that you are in, right now -- this is dukkha. You are realizing and embodying the First Noble Truth, so wholeheartedly. This is a natural way in to the Dharma, isn’t it? I agree, this struggle and questioning is a bit of a koan, and that’s why, no matter how many words we throw at it, it is never satisfactorily answered by words. Like a koan, it will only be answered by your own experience and realization. We don’t understand and then experience. We experience and then understand.

You brought up faith before, on your last thread. You do seem to have faith that there actually is an answer to be found somewhere, and that enlightenment or freedom from this suffering is possible. I think that is crucial to sticking with the practice. Oh yeah, and it’s also the Third Noble Truth. So you’re living that one too. All good and well.

But wait, we skipped over the Second Noble Truth. Suffering is caused by desire or attachment. What are you attached to? What is it that you are chasing after? What expectations do you have? What are you wanting, that will make it ok to go forward? What assurance would ever put your mind at ease? I read once (in a scientific context) that if a question cannot be resolved, it is not being properly formulated. The questions you keep asking are mostly ‘how’: how do I sit, am I doing it right, how do I know, how do I get the most benefit, etc? Maybe another question would be more fruitful. I am no teacher, just a friend trying to help, but the question I would suggest to ask is ‘who’ -- who is it that is suffering and feeling so frustrated? Shouldn’t the first question be, not what to do, or why, but what you are? Answer that question, realize your fundamental nature, and the way forward will surely show itself. Birds fly, fish swim; what is Tony, and what is his natural Way? You will not ever find that answer from others, no matter how wise or experienced they may be.

Sitting shikantaza can help you realize your fundamental nature, because it is an expression of your fundamental nature. Experience, and then understand.

Let me say it again. Suffering is caused by desire or attachment. Your suffering is not from the lack of good answers to your questions.

I suggest that the answers to all your questions are to be found in your own experience. Buddha said to find your own enlightenment, and that means a lot of work. (Annoying zenny comment: and it’s also the most effortless thing there is. Sorry.) Before we even think about fruit, we have to tend the soil. The plant is only as healthy as its roots. My advice to you, and to me, is to go back to the basics, and let yourself start at the beginning, again and again. I always return to the Four Noble Truths. Everything is there. You’ve got the First and the Third down pretty well. Maybe focus on the second for a while? When you see more clearly the source of your suffering, some of the questions that are bugging you may bug you less.

Oh yes, and then there’s that Fourth Little Noble Truth, which just happens to be a very detailed roadmap for getting out of the land of suffering (and saving everyone else too) step by step. Whenever you’re ready to go. Maps are cool.

I’m very grateful for your heartfelt questions; they are helping me and I’m sure many others as well, by making us examine and define our own experience. In this way you are sharing your bodhisattva gifts with us all. If I could give you a gift in return, my friend, I would give you an absolute assurance that you are already a perfect expression of all the truth that there is. That your practice is going exactly where it needs to go. That you are heading straight for your own dharma gate, even if it doesn’t feel like it sometimes.

Gassho
Lisa
Sat today

P.s. Thank you for the tea and cake

P.p.s. And your patience with these replies

[Meishin]

Thank you, Lisa

Gassho
Meishin
Sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

I always say in this kind of discussions... reading and intellectualizing can only get you so far. What we need is to sit and drop questions and ideas. Watch them flow with no intention and no purpose other than to just be with what is.

And that's all. Eventually you'll get all your answers and all you have read and what our teacher says will make sense. And if you don't get no answeres, well at least you'll be sitting and that's what matters

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jinyo]

Hello Tony - I don't have any eloquent words to answer your questions but I thank you for bringing them.

I also struggled a lot (less so now) with the fundamental paradoxes within Zen. I can remember asking Jundo once if he was always able to hold
two seemingly opposing 'views' simultaneously. It is only recently that I have been able to 'hear' his teachings on this and experience for myself the
truth of this teaching.

I could never have reached this point via the intellect. I simply decided that if I continued to 'sit' - dropping all intellectualization, need of answers, etc - for the time
I was sitting I would at least allow for the possibility that I might experience for myself this 'truth' that Jundo was expressing (along with all the other teachers in this lineage).

I can honestly say it has taken the best part of three years for my mind to loosen up enough to experience this with any authenticity. I don't say that to be discouraging - I'm probably incredibly hung up on analysis and questioning and need to go and dig over a patch of earth for a good few years before enlightenment strikes with something as simple as a pebble dislodged by a hoe (sorry can't remember the exact reference for that Zen story )

I think you mentioned that you sit for 40 mins. Jundo will correct if this is bad advice - but I would suggest you sit for 10 mins. Trust that during those ten minutes you simply don't need your mind at all - sit with the absolute certainty that for those ten minutes you sit within (as Jundo emphasizes) a sacred space. Don't analyse the word 'sacred' - just let it be. There is no need during that ten minutes for thought, conceptual language, discrimination - though thoughts will naturally still arise. No worry.

I think what I'm really saying is 'don't give up' - but sitting is key. No sitting - no experience - no understanding.

Gassho

Willow

Sat today

[Daitetsu]

Hi Tony,

We would surely be wise to check to see whether I am getting on a train thats actually not decommissioned and I am going to be stuck there for ever......Zen and Zazen might be complete and utter BS...I want to know what you know!

This is not about knowing, it is about not-knowing!
This is not about thinking, it is about (non-)doing!
This is not about gaining, it is about losing!
This is not about going home, it is about finding out you've been home all the time.

You sound like someone who wants to have a quick easy solution, a simple answer to life, the universe and everything? There you go: it's 42!
No seriously, you cannot find the answers to your questions in a book or from me or anyone else. You can only find out for yourself.

But well, that's just my opinion, man. (to quote The Dude)

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[Jundo]

So much wise advice here. Lisa, Willow, the others. Lovely.

I suggest maybe that now is a good time to put down the "thinking about" and get back to the "just sit" for awhile. To play with what Shingen said ...


Now let's go and no place to go and let go and sit!


Gassho, J

[Nameless]

Hey all,

A very tacit analogy that stirred me was Jundo's "clear sky and clouds talk." Whether it's a clear blue day, scattered clouds or stormy and gray.. The clear sky is always there. Never comes, never goes, unblemished by the clouds. Our minds, our nature, is just like this. Thoughts and feelings can be like clouds, but they don't harm or change the clear sky.

When we sky gaze, do we ask where the clouds came from and where they're going as they enter our field of vision? Nope, we just sit and watch. Even when it's cloudy, we know the clear sky is still up there. Getting "lost in thought" is like thinking that the sky is only clouds.

No need to hate the clouds. Clouds bring rain, just like thoughts and feelings bring innovations and actions. Without the clouds, there'd be no one alive to enjoy the blue sky. Just sitting, Shikantaza (and Zen in general really) is so simple that saying it's simple makes it more complex than it is. It's so unimaginably and unfathomably simple that we find it complicated.

Gassho, John
Sat Today

[Kaishin]

Tony,

Perhaps, just keep sitting for a bit. If you still have frustrations, probably time for a one-on-one chat with Jundo.

#sattoday

[michaeljc]

By the time we become aware that we are thinking it has gone and we are thinking about the thinking. From where the mind wanders is long gone

Its a mess in there - a beautiful mess

Millenniums ago someone defined the fruits of Zazen as method. They did us no service

m

Sat 2-day

[elle]

I've learned a lot from this thread.
Thank you all for your input.

Gassho,
Elle

sat today

[dharmasponge]

There's so much to assimilate from this thread. You've all been so helpful and are all true Sangha jewels. I'll read and re read.....no doubt I'll have another teaser for you shortly. Also thanks to Jundo for being such a patient and wise teacher, I love your style - you're the real deal!! _/|\_