Thoughts and not thoughts…

[dharmasponge]

Tony, may I ask you a question? I get the impression that you are actually practicing another flavor of meditation (perhaps Chan or Dzogchen) as presented by some other teacher in a more analytical and "stage" oriented way. There are so many such kinds of meditation, many flavors of lovely fruit. Or, it may be what some Teacher is calling "Shikantaza", but it is actually very categorizing and stage oriented about the process. I get the impression that you may then be coming here for advice on that, although those apples may be a bit different from true Shikantaza non-oranges. Am I wrong?

Hi Jundo,

I can see why you would think that but no, I am genuinely trying to sit in Zazen and specifically Shikantaza. Why? because I instinctively feel the truth in what you, Dogen and others speak of. I can see there logically there is nothing outside of myself, nowhere to go and little to do as its all complete in a lovely big beautiful shitty whole.

I do however, come from many years of using the Tibetan approach of EXTREMELY analytical study, in particular the the pragmatic and logic of the Prasangika school and its study of Emptiness.

But as I say, I sit in 'Zazen' EVERY morning....I wouldn't waste anyone's time in here by digging for tips HAHA!

And for better or worse I look to you as a mentor!

Tony...

Sat Today

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony,

We do not "witness thoughts", we do not "experience the thoughts". Please do not try to find "where they arise from or where they go". .....

SatToday

Love it...thanks so much Jundo - particularly the Bullshit kyōsaku...I respond well to that type of stick!!

Sat Today

[Ernstguitar]

Or is that another separation? What do you say, Ernst?

yes, Lisa, it is another separation. It is always, when we start to put things in words, I think.
But the question from Tony about thoughts is the reason,
why metaphors are working better than analytical discussions.
On the other side (again a separation) we have a brain and the ability to do philosophical buildings. ( I love (phil) the truth (sophia) )
For me both are important: the experiencing (zazen) and the philosophical (reading sutras and Dogens writings).
They go together for me - and I know, that there is a separation. I think, they come together during zazen. When the frame of my beliefs allows me to experience wholeness and "dropping body and mind". For me there is always a frame, which I enhance through dialogs like this.
I hope, that my kind of using words is not arrogant. I just try - as you do - to explain my experiences.

I hope also, that it is an excuse, Willow. I learn a lot doing that.

Gassho, Ernst
sat today

[Jinyo]

I think this thread is reaching the point where we're throwing in a lots of words trying to explain something that can't easily (if at all) be expressed in words.

Mentally/philosophically I agree with a lot of what's been said here but I could also quibble with some of it as well.

There is a question mark for me (regarding my own practice) as to whether the expression of all the 'correct words' (there are many - particularly to do with 'non-duality' - abiding in our 'true home- original face' etc) is any indication at all that I truly understand and EXPERIENCE/LIVE in this place of understanding.

I do agree there is great intention in our sitting - but we must simply aim and hope to hit the mark. If I start to analyse and break things down it's just more words and more concern as to whether what I'm doing is zazen, vipassana - this and that. Beyond a point this isn't helpful.

Whatever - most times my arrow of intention lies useless on the ground - but I learn a great deal from this 'uselessness'.

I dare say I'm a pretty poor student of sitting - but who is to judge? Whatever I write here is probably quite meaningless and not a good indicator.

I think we must recognise within our own hearts whether we're on track or not - all the words in the universe won't clarify this for us.

This is not meant to imply that we should not heed the very clear instructions that Jundo gives as to what is required at Tree Leaf

Gassho

Willow

Sat Today

[Byokan]

Hi Ernst,


I’ve only just started studying the Komyozo, so I don’t know... but the image of the mirror reflecting thoughts (and non-thoughts) feels right to me. Of course, I'm no authority, I'm just sharing my personal experience.

Jundo recently posted this from the Komyozo:
Just with all the energy of your body and mind, throw them totally into Komyozo [the Great Treasury of Light] without looking back. Do not seek satori enlightenment. Do not try to hide or be rid of illusion. Do not hate the thoughts that arise, do not love them either and above all, do not nourish them [without aversion to the rising of thoughts, and yet without fondly continuing them]. In every way, you must practice the great sitting, here and now [Stably, calmly, practice shikantaza, just sitting]. If you do not nourish a thought, it will not come back by itself. If you abandon yourself to the exhalation and let your inhalation fill you in a harmonious coming and going, nothing remains but a zafu beneath the empty sky, the weight of a flame.

Is this beyond the door to this light? Is there a door? Or is that another separation? What do you say, Ernst?

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jishin]

No attaining with nothing to attain...

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ernstguitar]

Hi Lisa,

just a question or continuing your description: ……...and the KOMYOZO shines through everything…. is this the mirror reflecting even the thoughts?
What do you say? Is this beyond the door to this light?

Gassho, Ernst
sat today

[Byokan]

Hi Sam,

I get what you’re saying, but I don’t agree that shikantaza is about thoughts. I think if your meditation is about thoughts, you are doing more of a Vipassana practice, where you might practice labeling... for instance, when you become aware of thinking, you say to yourself “thinking” and then return to “mindfulness”.


I think it is possible to be “aware”, even as a thought chain is going on. It’s possible to let the thoughts do what they do, without being caught up in them. This is the difference: not attaching-to or being-caught-up-in the thought chain. This distinction of thinking vs. being aware is an illusion and a distraction. Shikantaza, as I understand it, is beyond these dualities and distinctions. We move beyond this either/or distinction-making. So we're not working with or managing our thoughts, but resting in the completeness that contains all, both and neither thinking/not thinking and/or awareness. This is definitely not just sitting doing nothing.

Hope that made some sense...

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[shikantazen]

Shikantaza is not about thoughts or mental states at all. Your thoughts are conditional, arising in a chain of causality; they may or may not describe reality but they are very limited representations of reality at best. When in shikantaza, don’t bother to attach to thoughts, or suppress thoughts, don’t concern yourself with thoughts at all.

Shikantaza is about thoughts. Any meditation is about thoughts. When you realize you got caught up in thought, you immediately need to come back to your sitting. There is a clear, intentional, active coming back involved there. This is important. Lisa, what you and some others describe sounds to me like a "just sitting doing nothing" kind of sitting where you sit thinking that "whatever happens is fine" and believe that this trust and allowing is all shikantaza is about. That there is no need to bring the mind back or that the mind is anyway back when you wake up from the thought-chain.

But on the other hand if you are saying what I am saying, then shikantaza is definitely about thoughts. Take an ordinary person's mind who is sitting. Most of the time of sitting he is caught up in thought-chains. It is like a sequence. Aware,thought-chain, Aware, thought-chain, Aware and so on...; In fact, for the average person, there is more time he is caught in a thought-chain than he is aware. How is it Shikantaza not about thoughts then?

If you don't have an active intention to wake up from thought-chains, then your sitting is not correct. It is simply wasting time. There are many students who are wasting their time this way. Having an active intention to return (with or without an object) and then accepting however your sitting is going on (e.g., don't judge how long you are caught up or how many times you return etc...) is the correct direction.

Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today

[alan.r]

I’m new, so corrections are welcome. Here’s my current understanding: shikantaza is not a thought-management technique. Shikantaza is not sitting and working with your thoughts. Shikantaza is not a method or process to achieve a “clear” mental state. Shikantaza is not about thoughts or mental states at all. Your thoughts are conditional, arising in a chain of causality; they may or may not describe reality but they are very limited representations of reality at best. When in shikantaza, don’t bother to attach to thoughts, or suppress thoughts, don’t concern yourself with thoughts at all. Shikantaza is surrendering all that. Just put it down for now. Shikantaza is resting in the natural, expansive, unconditional reality that is beyond the chain of cause-and-effect. It is the default setting. You do not get there by doing, but by undoing. Stop splashing around and yelling "I can't swim!" and just let yourself float. Just release. This is your natural home, so you don’t have to struggle to get there. You know your way home. Stop running in circles. Stop struggling and let your feet walk you home. Guess what, you never left. Sit, rest, and abide here a while.

Great expression of it, Lisa. Thank you.

I am more, awake, more self aware of what I am doing with and to myself and others, and maybe being a bit more anal about that isn't such a bad thing. At least that's what I think.

Me too, Clark.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Byokan]

Hi Jundo,

yes, 40's like a top measure for retreats and such. I think consistency's the key, and is much more important than duration. 15-30 minutes is the magic number for me.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Ishin]

Hi Clark,

Yes, I like this a lot. It's definitely true for me. An interesting thing, I actually think zazen probably goes the other way too, for those not "analytical" enough. There's a balance that develops. What I mean is: for the over-thinker, like me, always spinning the thought wheels, there's often a lot of anxiety, etc, and Zazen balances that out with actual doing (probably one of the reasons I've always liked sports, I get to "just do, just play," but afterwards, I'd think and think about it). Anyway, for the less analytical person, zazen could be really helpful in brightening up that side of oneself too - for instance, there are people (I've lived with them) who don't even realize they're stressed out (whereas the over-thinkers think and think about why they're stressed, adding to the stress (or at least the case for me!)). And so, sitting might allow one to bring a bit of awareness to everyday life, that necessary bit of "analysis" of oneself so that they might be able to say, Oh wow, I'm stressed and I didn't even realize it.

Anyway, just adding some thoughts - it's a balance thing, is all I'm saying, I guess.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

Hi Alan

This sure is a great deal of thought about non thought, but I thought I would say something more. I understand and agree with you, certainly, for me at least, yes this practice can also make me more aware of the present moment I am in also. I therefore can pay very close attention to what I am doing and thus not be swept up in mindless activities either. I am more, awake, more self aware of what I am doing with and to myself and others, and maybe being a bit more anal about that isn't such a bad thing. At least that's what I think.

Gassho
C
Sat Today!

[Jundo]

Wow!

Only point, Lisa, is I think 40 minutes is good for some folks, too short for others, too long for most busy folks. We recommend 15 minutes a day, so long as folks are sitting beyond mental measures of quantity, long and short.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9281-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XXI%29

Gassho, J

[Byokan]

Hi All,

All this concern with the thoughts. I think of thoughts (haha) as a natural function and output of the brain. The brain is an organ in your body that, among other things, produces thoughts. Are you concerned with what your other organs, your liver or your spleen, are doing during shikantaza? Thoughts will never end. It’s ok.


I’m new, so corrections are welcome. Here’s my current understanding: shikantaza is not a thought-management technique. Shikantaza is not sitting and working with your thoughts. Shikantaza is not a method or process to achieve a “clear” mental state. Shikantaza is not about thoughts or mental states at all. Your thoughts are conditional, arising in a chain of causality; they may or may not describe reality but they are very limited representations of reality at best. When in shikantaza, don’t bother to attach to thoughts, or suppress thoughts, don’t concern yourself with thoughts at all. Shikantaza is surrendering all that. Just put it down for now. Shikantaza is resting in the natural, expansive, unconditional reality that is beyond the chain of cause-and-effect. It is the default setting. You do not get there by doing, but by undoing. Stop splashing around and yelling "I can't swim!" and just let yourself float. Just release. This is your natural home, so you don’t have to struggle to get there. You know your way home. Stop running in circles. Stop struggling and let your feet walk you home. Guess what, you never left. Sit, rest, and abide here a while.


Managing your thoughts to do shikantaza is like a fish trying to ride a bicycle in order to swim.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

P.s. Might as well throw in my theory on posture as well: nothing magical about the lotus position. Find a posture that you can maintain comfortably, and completely forget about your body, without falling over or falling asleep. Sit or lie this way almost every day until you can sustain it for 40 minutes. This is your meditation posture.

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,
please be careful with advice like this. Trying to force their body into a position can be unhealthy for people. Some people are not able to take certain positions and may get discouraged by comments like this.

Gassho
Nindo
willsittoday

Thank you Nindo. I agree thoroughly.

There may be something special about the Lotus, but I think there are actually many balanced postures and most of the differences would be just psychological. One can sit in a chair, in Seiza with a bench, etc. if one needs. Perhaps there is some wondrous physiological effect from the Full Lotus not available in other positions, but I think it is of minor difference even if so, and a bit of self-convincing.

I have written in the past about how the Japanese, compared to other Buddhists in Asia, fetishize the Lotus a bit. Much of that is cultural, as Japan is rather more focused on attaining "THE proper" form in many activities than other folks.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11553-Need-Tips-to-sit-in-Full-Lotus-Hand-Mudra-question&p=113821&viewfull=1#post113821

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - Nindo, no "will sit today" please ... we don't take IOUs However, you comments were very helpful to folks, so we'll overlook it with gratitude.