Thoughts and not thoughts…

[Jundo]

Teflon Zen! Thank you, Rich.

One aspect to emphasize is that, as we do not grab onto and "pay no never mind" to the dripping faucet of thoughts, they are just there without our being caught. They may fade from mind, like the leaky faucet no longer noticed though heard.

But, as well, do not fail to sit Zazen with an attitude of the Wholeness and Completion of the action of sitting, the one place and action called for in that instant of sitting. As we sit in the Peace, Wholeness and Illumination which manifests, when the drops do appear and are noticed, a certain Light shines though, a certain Silence right through the dripping noise. Then, each "drip drip drip" changes, and somehow proves itself to be also Buddha Buddha Buddha.

In other words, life's thoughts either do not catch us or, when they are engaged (because human beings are thinking/feeling beings, and cannot do without thoughts and emotions), also prove to shine with Wisdom and Compassion too. The drip drip drip is not the same drip drip drip as before. Then, each "drip drip drip" changes, and somehow proves itself to also be "Buddha Buddha Buddha" holding and reflecting all the world, each and all whole round and complete. Then, it is not just the same bothersome and annoying dripping as before, the thoughts are not quite the same deluded thoughts as before. Each drop is itself as clear and nonjudgmental as a mirror.

Something like that.

Tony, may I ask you a question? I get the impression that you are actually practicing another flavor of meditation (perhaps Chan or Dzogchen) as presented by some other teacher in a more analytical and "stage" oriented way. There are so many such kinds of meditation, many flavors of lovely fruit. Or, it may be what some Teacher is calling "Shikantaza", but it is actually very categorizing and stage oriented about the process. I get the impression that you may then be coming here for advice on that, although those apples may be a bit different from true Shikantaza non-oranges. Am I wrong?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[shikantazen]

Stick to a method
Stop asking questions and sit for a decade
Then sit for a decade more

My new year commitments

Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today

P.S. By the way, if you are not doing so already try sitting in half-lotus (or even better full lotus). I found that physically (and mentally) more stabler and calming than the burmese position

[Jishin]

Help me find my thoughts! I lost them somewhere and can't find them says I while thinking about thinking and nonthinking.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ishin]

Hello all

In my experience, some people are just very analytic in their approach to EVERYTHING in life. Note for the record I did NOT say anal. There is nothing wrong with this, we NEED people like this because some things in life require this approach. We can study every muscle and movement involved in throwing a baseball pitch. I am told by one scientist, that this took up 96 pages of a dissertation on the subject. However, reading those 96 pages doesn't really help us all that much when it comes to actually throwing the baseball over the plate. It takes practice, and actually doing it, and getting a feel for what throwing a baseball is actually like requires picking one up and DOING it.

So, perhaps for those of you of a more analytic bent, the nuts and bolts of shikantaza may be very important, yet I would argue that this is the very thing we are trying to let go of when we sit. Also, if you get frustrated, well sit with that. The frustration is something we all work with in all arenas of life. That's dukkha!

For me, when I notice my mind drifting, I just very gently say to myself "thinking" and return to the practice. Be kind to yourself. Even lousy shikantaza is good zazen.

If it gets really bad I try to visualize the thoughts one by one as they come up as leaves falling off a tree. Up there's one! Let it fall. Up, there's another.. let it fall. Drop every leaf.

Just DO it. This message brought to you by Nike/ Non-Nike.

Gassho
C

Sat Today!

[Jundo]

Hello all

In my experience, some people are just very analytic in their approach to EVERYTHING in life. Note for the record I did NOT say anal. There is nothing wrong with this, we NEED people like this because some things in life require this approach.

Oh, my analysis is that you are quite correct! In fact, I started Zazen about 33 years ago in the analytical and debate-filled environment of law school, and I consider myself a pretty analytical fellow in approaching life. There are plenty of times in life when analysis is appropriate.

It is just that Shikantaza is not a time for analysis, a divisive and oppositional approach to life which breaks things down into "this and that" parts and ranks. In that way, it may be more like experiencing a falling leaf. The biologist may analyze the biolgical structure of the leaf, the causes of its falling, and categorize all with a latin name. However, there is a time just to inhale the lovely Autumn scene.

That is my analysis.

Neither stir up the falling leaves, nor fight their falling. Each falling leaf is Buddha falling.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[alan.r]

Hello all

In my experience, some people are just very analytic in their approach to EVERYTHING in life.

So, perhaps for those of you of a more analytic bent, the nuts and bolts of shikantaza may be very important, yet I would argue that this is the very thing we are trying to let go of when we sit.

Hi Clark,

Yes, I like this a lot. It's definitely true for me. An interesting thing, I actually think zazen probably goes the other way too, for those not "analytical" enough. There's a balance that develops. What I mean is: for the over-thinker, like me, always spinning the thought wheels, there's often a lot of anxiety, etc, and Zazen balances that out with actual doing (probably one of the reasons I've always liked sports, I get to "just do, just play," but afterwards, I'd think and think about it). Anyway, for the less analytical person, zazen could be really helpful in brightening up that side of oneself too - for instance, there are people (I've lived with them) who don't even realize they're stressed out (whereas the over-thinkers think and think about why they're stressed, adding to the stress (or at least the case for me!)). And so, sitting might allow one to bring a bit of awareness to everyday life, that necessary bit of "analysis" of oneself so that they might be able to say, Oh wow, I'm stressed and I didn't even realize it.

Anyway, just adding some thoughts - it's a balance thing, is all I'm saying, I guess.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

[Ernstguitar]

Hi Tony,

I am not contributing a lot in the forum. And there was the question you asked, which provoked me to ask you something:
"Did you read the question of Jundo?"
The answers you´ve got are very helpful and I just say "yes" to nearly every suggestion you´ve got.
But…..you did not give an answer. So I asked myself: "Did he get his answer and everything is clear now
or was it just to give a sign of life?"
Perhaps it is much easier than it seems. I sit zazen like doing weight-lifting. It is not always joy to practice. But if you do it
for a certain time the muscles gain and the body gets well. Not today, and not because of a mystical secret.
It is because you lift the weight everyday.
The "wrong" zazen grows and if you do it with a joyful approach it gets better and better everyday.
You may think, that there is no progression, but it is.

Sorry for my redundant statement, but I was pushed from your "no-answer".

Gassho, Ernst
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Ernst,

I will say that our Way has a strange kind of progession and "getting better". We progress and "get better" by abandoning all need, right to the marrow, of need to "progress" and "get better". Unlike in weight training, where I may wish to get stronger and stronger, and bigger and bigger muscles, we rest content just as we are ... already Buddha. In fact, we are now content to grow weak, sick, infirm, aged as we all inevitably will (as the Buddha did in fact, growing old and infirm). One comes to experience a way of reality that cannot grow old, and never weakens ... even as we grow old and weak.

Now, don't misunderstand what I say and use it as an excuse to stop going to the gym, to abandon the diet, or become more angry and greedy, or to quit trying to improve ourselves in countless ways. Even though fat Buddha is Buddha, and "in shape" Buddha is Buddha, it is healthier to be in shape! If we are angry and greedy, we may still be "Buddha" on some level ... but will be blind to the fact.

Therefore, our Buddhist way is to know that, if we do not "progress and get better", we are still Buddha. If we "progress and get better", we are still Buddha. Either way is fine, no place to progress, nothing to gain or lose. Nonetheless, it is still probably a good idea to live in a healthy way.

Understand?

As one is sticking to one's diet, one should simultaneously know that there is "nothing in need of losing" ... yet avoid the chocolate cake nonetheless. As one is pumping iron in the gym, one should feel "there is nothing in need of gaining" ... yet maybe push for one more set.

Gassho, J

SatToday!

[Ernstguitar]

Hi Jundo,

thank you and yes. I´ve got it. (or I hope so )

Unlike in weight training, where I may wish to get stronger and stronger, and bigger and bigger muscles, we rest content just as we are…..

I compare it just with the daily practice. I do my practice in the gym-room (not every day, but….) without the wish of getting stronger or so now. It is just a good form of physical practice becourse of the many hours of sitting.

I do not think, that somebody starts without the idea of getting better, whatever that means. I think, that more and more I get the idea of what you said.(I hope.)
So, after 5 years I now understand what you mean with "nothing in need of…". (what does not mean, that I really feel it always)

Thanks

Gassho, Ernst
sat today

[Nindo]

P.S. By the way, if you are not doing so already try sitting in half-lotus (or even better full lotus). I found that physically (and mentally) more stabler and calming than the burmese position

Hi Sam,
please be careful with advice like this. Trying to force their body into a position can be unhealthy for people. Some people are not able to take certain positions and may get discouraged by comments like this.

Gassho
Nindo
willsittoday

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,
please be careful with advice like this. Trying to force their body into a position can be unhealthy for people. Some people are not able to take certain positions and may get discouraged by comments like this.

Gassho
Nindo
willsittoday

Thank you Nindo. I agree thoroughly.

There may be something special about the Lotus, but I think there are actually many balanced postures and most of the differences would be just psychological. One can sit in a chair, in Seiza with a bench, etc. if one needs. Perhaps there is some wondrous physiological effect from the Full Lotus not available in other positions, but I think it is of minor difference even if so, and a bit of self-convincing.

I have written in the past about how the Japanese, compared to other Buddhists in Asia, fetishize the Lotus a bit. Much of that is cultural, as Japan is rather more focused on attaining "THE proper" form in many activities than other folks.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?11553-Need-Tips-to-sit-in-Full-Lotus-Hand-Mudra-question&p=113821&viewfull=1#post113821

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - Nindo, no "will sit today" please ... we don't take IOUs However, you comments were very helpful to folks, so we'll overlook it with gratitude.

[Byokan]

Hi All,

All this concern with the thoughts. I think of thoughts (haha) as a natural function and output of the brain. The brain is an organ in your body that, among other things, produces thoughts. Are you concerned with what your other organs, your liver or your spleen, are doing during shikantaza? Thoughts will never end. It’s ok.


I’m new, so corrections are welcome. Here’s my current understanding: shikantaza is not a thought-management technique. Shikantaza is not sitting and working with your thoughts. Shikantaza is not a method or process to achieve a “clear” mental state. Shikantaza is not about thoughts or mental states at all. Your thoughts are conditional, arising in a chain of causality; they may or may not describe reality but they are very limited representations of reality at best. When in shikantaza, don’t bother to attach to thoughts, or suppress thoughts, don’t concern yourself with thoughts at all. Shikantaza is surrendering all that. Just put it down for now. Shikantaza is resting in the natural, expansive, unconditional reality that is beyond the chain of cause-and-effect. It is the default setting. You do not get there by doing, but by undoing. Stop splashing around and yelling "I can't swim!" and just let yourself float. Just release. This is your natural home, so you don’t have to struggle to get there. You know your way home. Stop running in circles. Stop struggling and let your feet walk you home. Guess what, you never left. Sit, rest, and abide here a while.


Managing your thoughts to do shikantaza is like a fish trying to ride a bicycle in order to swim.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

P.s. Might as well throw in my theory on posture as well: nothing magical about the lotus position. Find a posture that you can maintain comfortably, and completely forget about your body, without falling over or falling asleep. Sit or lie this way almost every day until you can sustain it for 40 minutes. This is your meditation posture.

[Jundo]

Wow!

Only point, Lisa, is I think 40 minutes is good for some folks, too short for others, too long for most busy folks. We recommend 15 minutes a day, so long as folks are sitting beyond mental measures of quantity, long and short.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9281-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XXI%29

Gassho, J

[Ishin]

Hi Clark,

Yes, I like this a lot. It's definitely true for me. An interesting thing, I actually think zazen probably goes the other way too, for those not "analytical" enough. There's a balance that develops. What I mean is: for the over-thinker, like me, always spinning the thought wheels, there's often a lot of anxiety, etc, and Zazen balances that out with actual doing (probably one of the reasons I've always liked sports, I get to "just do, just play," but afterwards, I'd think and think about it). Anyway, for the less analytical person, zazen could be really helpful in brightening up that side of oneself too - for instance, there are people (I've lived with them) who don't even realize they're stressed out (whereas the over-thinkers think and think about why they're stressed, adding to the stress (or at least the case for me!)). And so, sitting might allow one to bring a bit of awareness to everyday life, that necessary bit of "analysis" of oneself so that they might be able to say, Oh wow, I'm stressed and I didn't even realize it.

Anyway, just adding some thoughts - it's a balance thing, is all I'm saying, I guess.

Gassho,
Alan
sattoday

Hi Alan

This sure is a great deal of thought about non thought, but I thought I would say something more. I understand and agree with you, certainly, for me at least, yes this practice can also make me more aware of the present moment I am in also. I therefore can pay very close attention to what I am doing and thus not be swept up in mindless activities either. I am more, awake, more self aware of what I am doing with and to myself and others, and maybe being a bit more anal about that isn't such a bad thing. At least that's what I think.

Gassho
C
Sat Today!

[Byokan]

Hi Jundo,

yes, 40's like a top measure for retreats and such. I think consistency's the key, and is much more important than duration. 15-30 minutes is the magic number for me.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today